The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the
Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a
copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have
just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the
Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing
documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically
a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to
testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member.
I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to
waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be
willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with
the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning
concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New
Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of
that, however, will you state your full name for the record.
Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?
Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them?
Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them?
Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey
Oswald's cousin?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr.
and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he
not, D-u-t-z?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education
here in the New Orleans school system?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?
Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St.
Louis University and Loyola University.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree?
Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in?
Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer
of 1963?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first
time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him,
the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that
you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that
period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.
Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did
have with him. Since I did live in the house and did----
Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street?
Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with
him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular
neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this
particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was?
Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned,
you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am
not too sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or
can't you----
Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind
of confused now on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and
Oswald was there?
Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is
when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was
here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery
to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But
there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him
other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something,
but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different
environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and
that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that
they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received
better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you
gain an impression about that?
Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I
couldn't, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first
place?
Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of
my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he
just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or
anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia,
other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort
of thing is concerned?
Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had
gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in?
Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or
something, you know, similar.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of
photography?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in
the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a
photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that
he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United
States?
Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of
him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and
wanted to come back to the States.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his
experience in Russia? Is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French
Street for about a week? Is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know,
how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I
can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might
be.
Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one?
Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job.
I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that
he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or
some place around there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job?
Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding
a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know,
even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding
a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came
back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of
impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the
clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is
all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald
apparently rented on Magazine Street?
Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina
and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or
actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that
you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that.
Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757
French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened
sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't
have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular
night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he
should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him
on getting a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car?
Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the
impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive
a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to
start the car and so forth, what to do on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the
car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he
did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.
Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I
guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the
city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where
they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking
places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street
over to the parking lot in the park?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to
back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big
car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell
him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into
the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is
concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is
my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let
him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French
Street?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or
anything. Nobody was in the park.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth.
Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it
was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is
nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could
have handled it, you know, the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car?
Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself
without your permission?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was
here in New Orleans, as far as you know?
Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit
priest----
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee
Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along?
Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a
sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know?
Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and
Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student,
since that time?
Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all?
Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was
at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And
I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested
in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the
Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what
the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the
food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking
him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the
questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with
my brother, you know, just asking him about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that?
Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?
Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene,
indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?
Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned,
there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought?
Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit
priest?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when
he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for
lunch----
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French
Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald
during the summer of 1963?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house
some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her?
Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and
I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually
couldn't speak to her, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could
speak English?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that
she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.