The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the
Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly
sworn testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission,
transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which
he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation
of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B.
Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties,
and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony
before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one.
Did she receive those?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did.
Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. You did read them?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of
the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of
making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their
lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives,
with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking
into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if
possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22,
1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that
connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you
know, if anything, in that regard.
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname?
Mr. MURRET. Dutz.
Mr. JENNER. Dutz?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?
Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and
it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just
stuck with me.
Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting?
Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a
career of it, or anything.
Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you?
Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63.
Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans?
Mr. MURRET. Right.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family.
Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the
way.
Mr. MURRET. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five?
Mr. MURRET. Five.
Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in
Mobile, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging
over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and
to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college,
and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a
priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.
Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb
Co., is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now.
Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball
player, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls.
Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics?
Mr. MURRET. Well, yes.
Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed?
Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed.
Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to
Lee Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife,
did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball
when he was in high school; did you know that?
Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have.
Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who
are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys
are right handed?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers.
Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her?
Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife.
Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and
Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic?
Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance.
Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that
right?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very
often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.
Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years.
Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore?
Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge,
but his firm is in that line of business.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding.
Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in
that marriage?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they separated?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we
will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is
that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did.
Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see
them pretty often.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent
marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What business was he in?
Mr. MURRET. The insurance business.
Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman?
Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his
company.
Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a
couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street?
Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You do remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee
was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was
right after he died.
Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the
child? Did she go to work, or what?
Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited
anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of
my business, so I didn't ask about that.
Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business?
Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then,
after Mr. Oswald died?
Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I
think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name
of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life.
Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about
a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by
Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that?
Mr. MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in
him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay
attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I
mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from
his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the
opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the
apartment the way I understand it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right?
Mr. MURRET. Not too well.
Mr. JENNER. Not too well?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that?
Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She
always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody
that disagreed with her, and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like
that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all
right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families,
to that extent.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did they go?
Mr. MURRET. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. To Texas?
Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went.
Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might
even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they
left.
Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of
1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New
Orleans? Do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old?
Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned
to New Orleans?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right,
or do you know?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those
details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.
Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when
he returned?
Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the
second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain
way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.
Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New
Orleans, didn't they?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that
they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans
on that occasion?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the
wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that
they were in New York; I remember that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that
they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?
Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular,
and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I
don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.
Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas,
right?
Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost
contact with them.
Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at
Exchange Alley, didn't they?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved
back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them?
Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and
stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't
remember what month, but it was about that.
Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood?
Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for
an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would
like to stay with us until he found something.
Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that.
Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the
kitchen.
Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then?
Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said,
"Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of
course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance,
I don't think.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is
that right?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Not a thing?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion?
Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage?
Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and
bring them to the house?
Mr. MURRET. Did I help him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with
any luggage, not that day.
Mr. JENNER. The next day?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a
couple of days afterward.
Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of
days later, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus
station?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't
remember it?
Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you
don't recall it at this time?
Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at
that time?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or
something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that
sort of thing?
Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag.
Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it?
Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get
his luggage?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that.
Mr. JENNER. And you drove?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove.
Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge?
Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?
Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them.
Mr. JENNER. What else did he have?
Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes?
Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases?
Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you?
Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was
contained?
Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car.
I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two
duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared
at your house after all those years?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but
he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for
his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.
Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the
number is concerned, I don't know it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Marina?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and
have her come over?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and
I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would
walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.
Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine
arrived?
Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided
to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I
think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.
Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and
everything?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two
children with her.
Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come
and visit you or your family at your home?
Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must
have come in the daytime.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over?
Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the
baby, and Lee.
Mr. JENNER. How did this come about?
Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee
was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up
there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made
over to Mobile?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over?
Mr. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?
Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over
there?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over
there.
Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you there?
Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were
on the grounds.
Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. How about Marina?
Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in.
Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time?
Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he
was making.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?
Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the
trip or the motel or anything.
Mr. JENNER. You paid it?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or
pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be
termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?
Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of
Castro, on the mantel there.
Mr. JENNER. On the mantel?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested.
Mr. JENNER. Last summer?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In August it was there?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here?
Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio.
Mr. JENNER. The radio?
Mr. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going
to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the
radio instead.
Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the
program?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an
automobile?
Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach
him to talk American to his little child.
Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that?
Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why
don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he
didn't give me an answer to that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left
Russia?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his
political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of
Russia?
Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to
Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out
the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back
here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and
these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My
main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't
disrupt anything around there.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him?
Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked
America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and
she said, "I like America."
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked
you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its
investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this
matter?
Mr. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your
deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter
transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What
do you prefer to do in that respect?
Mr. MURRET. I will waive it.
Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your
deposition?
Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all
the questions I have.
Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get
to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for
anyone, especially for his mother.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that
you had contact with him?
Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed
to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For
example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like
that. He wanted to do it all himself.
Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right?
Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go
ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him
after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.