Mr. WULF. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Contact over this thing?
Mr. WULF. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a strongly presented argument?
Mr. WULF. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started
hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through
Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him
violently, and he asked him to leave the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your father a native of Germany?
Mr. WULF. Hamburg.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had been involved in some political activities
with or opposed to the Communists?
Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany
following the war, 1919-20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic
Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and
he just--well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't
like Communists.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything about the details of your first
meeting with Lee Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that
he asked--we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the
conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck
me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the
time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered
in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we
were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data
we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be
hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him
from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of
the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3
o'clock in the morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was at a meeting of the association?
Mr. WULF. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house.
It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something
like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and
just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is
somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at
that time?
Mr. WULF. Not at that time; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you remember anything else about the second
meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us?
Mr. WULF. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed
communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made
Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that
way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little
about communism, and he was just--actually militant on the idea, and I
can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist,
he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist
Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to
find a Communist organization?
Mr. WULF. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name
Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking
for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he
couldn't----
Mr. LIEBELER. Couldn't find one?
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as
this with McBride?
Mr. WULF. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride
and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when
we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent
leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop
associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except
for, you know, working hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed
communism with him?
Mr. WULF. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were
on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social
association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys
struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had
quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and
I think they tended to associate because of that reason, because they
were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and
McBride? Is that correct?
Mr. WULF. On this particular point, yes; that they were both--well, for
one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that
they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were
that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride--he
wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more
money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and
not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride
associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after
this second visit that--we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald
specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable
on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy
Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite
conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I
was quite conscious of security matters and all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest
in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations?
Mr. WULF. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was
strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any
belief in communism.
Mr. LIEBELER. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two
pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and
453-B."
Mr. WULF. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in
those pictures?
Mr. WULF. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo
453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on
"Pizzo 453-A."
Mr. LIEBELER. You recognize that as Oswald?
Mr. WULF. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I
subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can
associate.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these
pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of----
Mr. WULF. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints--I can tell by the grain--and
they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are
the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what
you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do
not associate the other man marked----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your
observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having
seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper?
Mr. WULF. No; I base that picture on--when I first saw those films
originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling
that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it
was many years ago, it was--oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was
younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but
he seems to me to be the same person.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the
logical steps that----
Mr. WULF. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that logical association is the association that we
have already described throughout this record?
Mr. WULF. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New
Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know
for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that
year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his
mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him.
McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had
asked him about it because of his attitudes and such.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his
mother?
Mr. WULF. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like
this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother--this is
hearsay, of course, through McBride--that his mother didn't associate
with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as
such.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in
1955-56?
Mr. WULF. Right, 1955.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the
assassination?
Mr. WULF. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once,
and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram
requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no
answer, and we were wondering where he is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If
you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like
to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would
appreciate it if you would add it.
Mr. WULF. Not that I know of. The only thing I can--I don't know how
many people have told you of this period of his life--I amplify that
at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently
for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young
at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for
communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing
that did hit me, he seemed--I told this to McBride at the time--he
seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I
don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may
have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to
associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and
at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification,
and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to
become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time,
and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to
Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the
time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to
thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent
that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much.
Mr. WULF. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help.