“This differentiation in the treatment of individual sections of
the churches and church organizations is, in my opinion, quite
unjustified.”
I then quote from Document 117-PS, a letter from Bormann to Rosenberg,
dated 28 January 1939. I quote from the second paragraph:
“The Party has repeatedly in recent years had to explain its
attitude on the plan for a State Church or for some other
measure establishing closer connection between the State and the
Church. The Party has always emphatically rejected such plans
for two reasons. First, a connection between the State and the
Church, as the organization of a religious community which does
not in all fields aim at the practical application of National
Socialist principles, would not fulfill the ideological demands
of National Socialism. Second, purely practical and political
considerations speak against such a formal union.”
I then refer to Document L-22, which deals with a conference in the
Führer’s headquarters on 16 July 1941, at which Hitler, Rosenberg,
Lammers, Keitel, Göring, and Bormann were present.
THE PRESIDENT: Could you tell us in what part of the book this is and
what is the number?
DR. BERGOLD: L-22. It is approximately in the middle of the book.
Bormann acted as secretary of the conference and wrote the minutes. The
Prosecution stated that Bormann’s incidental remarks showed that he had
participated in the discussion, at that conference, of plans for the
incorporation of Russian territory into the Reich. I shall therefore
have to read this incidental remark which he made.
THE PRESIDENT: This is L-221, not L-22.
DR. BERGOLD: The first incidental remark is in the 14th paragraph and
reads as follows:
“Incidentally, does an educated class still exist in the
Ukraine, or are the Ukrainians of a higher class to be found
only as emigrants outside Russia?”
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, could you not tell us what original page it
is? In our document book there are headings “original page” so and so.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, they are there, but—one moment, please, I shall have
to look for it again. The translation which I have received has a
different type of division—Page 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
“We have to create a garden of Eden....” The first part of Page 4 is,
“We have to create a garden of Eden....”
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, yes, yes, the second paragraph, the third paragraph,
no, after each one—it is the third paragraph.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on, then.
DR. BERGOLD: Have you got it, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: I shall not know until you tell me how it begins.
DR. BERGOLD: It begins, “Incidentally, does an educated class still
exist in the Ukraine...?”
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have got that, yes. Page 3.
DR. BERGOLD: It is on Page 3.
THE PRESIDENT: I think it is on Page 4. It goes like this: “Is there
still anything like an educated class in the Ukraine?”
DR. BERGOLD: According to the document book which has just been
submitted to me, it is on Page 3, but it may be Page 4.
THE PRESIDENT: The original is Page 4.
DR. BERGOLD: Then on Page 5, Page 4, no, it is Page 3, Your Lordship.
Page 4 has a very similar remark which reads:
“It has frequently become apparent that Rosenberg has a great
deal of liking for the Ukrainians. He wants to enlarge the old
Ukraine considerably.”
And then the last remark on Page 8—Page 5 in the English text, third
paragraph from the end, a note for Party member Klöpfer:
“Please ask Dr. Meyer as soon as possible for the data on the
proposed organization and the filling of the positions.”
Then at the end, Page 6 of your original, last paragraph:
“Incidentally, the Führer emphasized that activity of the
churches was out of the question. Papen had already submitted to
him through the Foreign Office a long memorandum stating that
now the right moment for re-establishing the churches had
arrived. But that was definitely out of the question.”
This refers to a statement by Hitler.
Then I come to Document 1520-PS. I want first of all to draw the
Tribunal’s attention to the fact that in this record, which Lammers
wrote, Bormann is not at all mentioned at the beginning among those
present, apparently because his activity as secretary was considered a
matter of course.
I should now like to read from Page 2 of your original, from the
paragraph beginning, “Then the discussion turned to the question of
freedom of religion...” I shall begin on the eighth line of the fourth
paragraph:
“Bormann agreed with this attitude absolutely but said that the
only question was whether the Reich Minister for the East, who
after all had a name in Germany, would not through such a law
create too far-reaching obligations which would then have
repercussions in the Reich. The churches themselves were going
to define what was meant by ‘religious freedom,’ and he
predicted that such a law would result in hundreds of new
letters and complaints on the part of the churches within the
Reich.”