The President's Commission met at 3 p.m., on July 28, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Senator John Sherman Cooper (presiding), and Allen W.
Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; W. David Slawson,
assistant counsel; and Richard A. Frank, attorney, Office of the Legal
Adviser, Department of State.
Senator COOPER. The Commission will be in order.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I do.
Mr. SLAWSON. Mr. Ambassador, could you please state for the record your
full name and address?
Ambassador THOMPSON. My name is Llewellyn E. Thompson. I reside at 1913
23d Street NW., Washington.
Mr. SLAWSON. And could you state your present position with the U.S.
Government and the positions you have held since late 1959?
Ambassador THOMPSON. In 1959 I was Ambassador in Moscow, and then I was
transferred to the State Department as Ambassador at Large, and have
been that since that time. In addition, I am now Acting Deputy Under
Secretary of State.
Mr SLAWSON. Thank you. Ambassador Thompson has been asked to testify
today on any contacts he may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald while the
Ambassador was in his post with the American Embassy in Moscow and on
any knowledge he may have on pertinent Soviet practices or American
practices at that time which might relate to the treatment of Mr.
Oswald.
Ambassador Thompson, could you state all of the times and describe them
when you heard about Lee Harvey Oswald's dealings with your Embassy at
Moscow while he was in Russia, either in late 1959 or thereafter?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; the only recollection I have is that when I
returned from a trip to the United States in November 1959, or some
time after that, the consul informed me about the case, and said this
man had asked to renounce his citizenship. I recall asking him----
Mr. DULLES. Was that Consul Richard E. Snyder?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; I am almost certain of that. I recall asking
him why he didn't accept the renunciation, and he explained that
in cases of this kind he normally waited to make sure the man was
serious, and also in order to normally consult the State Department.
I believe he told me at that time that the man had not come back again.
And I believe that is the only recollection I have of the case at all
at the time I was in Moscow.
Mr. SLAWSON. And that includes any other time thereafter, including
through 1962?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; of course I read the press and was aware of
the case when it came up in the Department. There was some discussion
of it. But no knowledge that I think would bear on the case.
I recall, I think, being in Germany at the time I read in the press
that he was leaving the country--leaving Moscow, that is. But I don't
recall having been consulted about his application to leave.
Mr. SLAWSON. Did you have any personal dealings or any knowledge of
your subordinates' dealings with Marina Oswald, Lee Oswald's wife, when
she applied to accompany him back to the United States in early 1961
and frequently thereafter?
Ambassador THOMPSON. None that I recall.
Mr. SLAWSON. Mr. Ambassador, I wonder if you could make any comments
you would like to make on the policy which Consul Snyder and others
testifying for the Department of State have described in their
treatment of Americans who sought to renounce their citizenship when
they came to Moscow, and how these Americans were handled?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Well, I am aware that we have had cases where
someone would say they wanted to renounce their citizenship and then
after a few days in the Soviet Union change their minds. And while I
don't recall any specific cases, I do know we have had cases of that
sort.
Mr. SLAWSON. Was there any particular time in your career when this
sort of thing was more frequent than other times--any groups of people
where it might have occurred?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Well, I know that prior to my arrival in Moscow
in 1941, when I was Secretary in the Embassy, that there had been a
great influx from the United States, particularly of people of Finnish
origin, who had returned to the Soviet Union. I think that some of
those people at least had not renounced their citizenship; they had
come over there under the impression that they would receive very good
treatment, and a great many of them applied subsequently to return to
the United States. But many of them were unable to get exit visas.
Mr. SLAWSON. Were those that did not give up their American citizenship
usually able to return to the United States if they changed their mind?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I believe so. I know of one case of a man of
Finnish origin who worked for the Embassy, and he did return to the
United States. It is the one case I know of personally. I am quite sure
there were some others who did get out.
Mr. SLAWSON. Shifting now to the Soviet treatment of American
defectors, or would-be defectors, are there any cases in your
experience where you could comment on the Soviet treatment of such
persons, how quickly the Russian Government made up its mind whether it
wanted them for permanent residence in Russia and so on?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I think that in recent times, at least, my
impression is that the Soviets, because of bad experience they have
had with some people who came there to reside, and renounced their
citizenship, have looked these people over and let them know that they
could not remain. I think there was a case since I left the Soviet
Union of that sort. I don't recall the exact particulars. But I do have
the impression that they now don't automatically accept people who
come and say they want to renounce their citizenship and would like to
reside there.
Mr. SLAWSON. Can you give the Commission any estimate on the time
periods that sometimes are involved in the Soviet authorities making up
their mind?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I think that there has been at least a case or two
during the time I was there where it was pretty obvious that the person
concerned was unstable and that the Soviets very quickly let the person
know that he could not reside. But since I did not handle these cases,
I do not--I could not cite any specific cases.
Mr. SLAWSON. Mr. Ambassador, I have a name of an American citizen, Mr.
William Edgerton Morehouse, Jr., who, according to the records of the
Department of State, was hospitalized in a hospital in Moscow in the
fall of 1959.
According to records furnished us by the Russian Government, and
according to the personal diary kept by Lee Harvey Oswald, he, too,
was hospitalized in the latter part of October, and commented--Oswald
commented in his diary--that in his ward with him was what he described
as an elderly American. We are trying to locate that American. We think
that possibly this Mr. Morehouse was that person. I wonder if you had
ever heard of Mr. Morehouse before, or know who he might be?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I have no recollection of having heard of this man
before.
Mr. SLAWSON. Do you have any recollection of any other American that
might fit this description?
Ambassador THOMPSON. No; I do recall that there have been American
tourists who have been in the hospital in Moscow. But I don't recall at
that particular date whether there were any.
Mr. SLAWSON. Mr. Ambassador, can you comment on how Americans were
ordinarily given medical treatment in the Botkinskaya Hospital in
Moscow, which was the hospital in which Oswald was treated, to the best
of your knowledge?
Ambassador THOMPSON. The Botkinskaya Hospital has a section which
is reserved for the members of the diplomatic corps, and in case of
prominent Americans, particularly if the illness were serious, they
were often treated there.
Mr. SLAWSON. You say the Americans normally were treated in a special
ward in that hospital, or a special section of it?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; it was a completely separate building, I
believe.
Mr. SLAWSON. Was this the invariable method of treatment, or would
there be a reasonable chance that an American might have gone into a
normal Soviet ward which would have treated his type of illness?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I would think that the ward which was reserved for
the diplomatic corps would probably only have been used for important
visitors, but it is quite a large hospital, with a large number of
separate buildings. It is quite possible for Americans to have been in
one or the other. And obviously, if there were an infectious disease,
they would be separated, and not in the regular section.
Mr. SLAWSON. If an ordinary American tourist or businessman in Moscow
were to receive an injury in, say, an automobile accident or some other
normal method, would he normally be put into the same ward as Embassy
people were placed, or would he receive treatment right along with
normal Soviet citizens?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I think that there is an emergency hospital type
where he probably would normally be taken, rather than Botkinskaya. I
cannot be sure of this. But we had an American doctor in the Embassy
who would normally be called in on cases of this kind, and if he felt
the case required it he would probably apply to have him taken to
Botkinskaya.
Mr. SLAWSON. Do you recollect who this doctor was in the fall of 1959?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I believe at that time it was an Air Force
officer. It sometimes rotated among the services. But I am almost
certain it was an Air Force officer. I could get the name, but I don't
recall it at the moment. I just don't recall the name.
Senator COOPER. I suggest that the Secretary can supply the name for
the Commission.
Mr. SLAWSON. Mr. Ambassador, do you think it would be usual of the
Soviet Government to permit someone in Oswald's circumstances, that is
a would-be defector from his own government, to be treated in the same
ward as other Americans, or particularly as Americans who might come
under the category of this important person or Embassy official ward
you were speaking of?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I would think it is probably somewhat unusual.
This doctor could give you expert testimony on this, because he has
been involved in almost all cases.
Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to know whether that doctor is in the United
States at the present time?
Ambassador THOMPSON. He was in Texas the last I heard. I draw a blank
on his name at the moment, although I know him quite well.
Mr. SLAWSON. I think with the lead you have given us, we shouldn't have
any difficulty in finding his name. I have no other questions. Does
anyone else present care to place a question?
Senator COOPER. It appears from the testimony that we have heard that
Lee Oswald appeared at the Embassy on October 31, 1959, and stated he
wished to renounce his American citizenship. As I understand, at that
time you were out of the Soviet Union.
Ambassador THOMPSON. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. Was Edward L. Freers, Chargé d'Affaire?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Was there a consulate in Moscow?
Ambassador THOMPSON. There is a consular section of the Embassy, but
not a separate consulate.
Senator COOPER. Who had charge of the consulate section of the Embassy?
Ambassador THOMPSON. At that time I believe it was Mr. Richard Snyder.
Senator COOPER. And was he the one who advised you on your return to
Moscow that Oswald had applied to the Embassy and stated that he wished
to renounce his citizenship?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I believe that is correct. I think the counselor
was also present at the time. I think both of them informed me.
Senator COOPER. We have had in evidence dispatches from the Embassy
at Moscow upon this question, and the matter was referred to the
Department of State as to what steps should be taken towards his
renunciation. Was that the normal way of the Embassy handling such
applications for renunciation of citizenship?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes, sir; I believe that would be done in every
case.
Senator COOPER. Did the State Department have any policy, other
than reference to the State Department, as to the approval of such
applications?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I believe our practice is that whenever we are
convinced that the man is serious, and knows what he is doing, that
this is allowed to take place--the renunciation is accepted.
Senator COOPER. Is there a policy or practice of attempting to
determine whether the person is serious, or whether the person might
change his or her mind after the original renunciation application?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; that is correct. Because, as I said earlier,
there have been cases where people have changed their minds in a very
few days. Also, there is always the possibility that someone might be
temporarily of unsound mind or some other reason, why it would need to
be ascertained that they were aware of what they were doing.
Senator COOPER. There is also in evidence a letter, or a dispatch from
the Embassy to the Department of State, dated May 26, 1961, signed for
the Ambassador by Edward L. Freers, minister counselor. This dispatch
deals with the application of Oswald to secure a renewal of his
passport. Were you out of Moscow at that time?
Ambassador THOMPSON. What was the date, sir?
Senator COOPER. May 26, 1961.
Ambassador THOMPSON. I believe I was in Moscow at that time. I took a
trip within the Soviet Union from May 10 to 14, 1961, but I believe I
was there on May 9.
Senator COOPER. Then these dispatches, they were sent in your name, or
by someone for the Ambassador?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; but I don't recall having been shown them.
Mr. SLAWSON. For the record, Senator Cooper, could I state that the
dispatch of May 26, 1961, you referred to is Commission Exhibit No.
936, and the memorandum you are also reading from is Commission Exhibit
No. 935.
Mr. DULLES. How were those signed, Mr. Slawson?
Mr. SLAWSON. Commission Exhibit No. 935 is signed for the Ambassador
by Boris H. Klosson, counselor for political affairs. And Commission
Exhibit No. 936 is signed for the Ambassador by Edward L. Freers,
minister counselor.
Senator COOPER. I might also refer to the earlier dispatch November 2,
1959, Commission Exhibit No. 908.
Now, were the procedures followed with respect to his request for
renewal of his passport--that is in reference to the Department of
State, for decision--was that the normal procedure followed when
persons who had attempted to renounce or had renounced, claimed or
desired to secure renewal of their passport--to refer it to the
Department of State?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes, sir; I think in every case that would be done.
Senator COOPER. Now, between the time of Oswald's entrance into the
Soviet Union and his exit, did you ever see Oswald yourself?
Ambassador THOMPSON. No, sir; I never saw him that I knew of.
Senator COOPER. Did you hear anything about him during his stay in the
Soviet Union?
Ambassador THOMPSON. My only recollection is of this first briefing. I
don't recall hearing anything else about him.
Senator COOPER. In evidence it has appeared that not too long after he
came to Moscow, he went to Minsk and secured a job there.
From your experience as Ambassador, our Ambassador in Russia, and also
in other positions in the Embassy, would you consider that unusual,
that Oswald should be able to secure a job in a Russian factory while
he was there?
Ambassador THOMPSON. No, sir; I think that once they had agreed to let
him stay in the Soviet Union, they would have assisted him in obtaining
employment, because they believe that everyone that is able to in the
country should work, and since he was obviously not staying just as a
tourist, I think they would normally have provided employment for him.
Senator COOPER. Also in evidence it indicates he was provided by the
Soviet officials with a passport or document which described him as a
stateless person.
From your experience would you be able to say whether or not that was a
normal procedure for the Soviets to follow with respect to an American
tourist?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I think that as long as they agreed to let him
stay beyond the normal time of a tourist, that is a month or at the
most 2 months, that they would then provide him with documentation so
he could identify himself to the police. The police would not normally
be able to read an American passport. In the Soviet Union, if you
travel at all, you have to produce documentation--to stay in a hotel,
very often to obtain transportation. So I think it would be normal that
they would provide him with documentation.
Senator COOPER. Would you say that in late 1959, or 1960 or 1961 that
the provision by the Soviet Union officials to a tourist of a document
like this, saying he is a stateless person, and allowing him to stay
beyond the usual time, for a tourist, was ordinary or usual? Would that
indicate anything unusual to you, from your experience in the Embassy
in Moscow?
Ambassador THOMPSON. No; I think not. I think that in cases of this
kind that this would be normal.
Senator COOPER. Would it indicate in any way that they might be
considering further his application to become a citizen of the Soviet
Union or, in another way, that they were considering whether or not he
might be used as an agent of the Soviet Union?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Well, I think there have been a good many cases
of people who have come to the Soviet Union from abroad, and I believe
that a number of them have not formally renounced citizenship. I recall
that in 1941, when Germany attacked the Soviet Union, that there were a
number of people who turned up that we had not known were in the Soviet
Union, had never been near the Embassy, and had never, as far as we
know renounced their citizenship. But they had been living there all
this time.
Senator COOPER. You would not have any reason to think, then, that
these circumstances might indicate that the Soviets were--could
consider using him as an agent at some future time?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I would not have much on which to base a judgment
on that, other than that it seems to me, of course, possible, in this
or any other case in which a foreigner has come in to reside. But as I
say there have been a great many cases.
For example, there are many people of Armenian origin who have returned
to the Soviet Union and have been encouraged to do so by the Soviet
Government. And in view of the very large numbers, I would think that
the intention to use any of them as an agent would be very rare.
As far as I can understand, they encouraged them to come back because
they wanted their skills available.
Senator COOPER. When he applied for a renewal of his passport, his
wife, Marina, made application for a passport. And I believe it was
said that that was a prerequisite to securing an exit visa from the
Soviet Union.
From your experience as Ambassador and in other posts in the American
Embassy, do you consider the time in which she was able to secure an
exit visa from Russia, within so short time, as unusual?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Well, if it was a short time--and I am not aware
of the exact time, myself--but if it were a short time, I would say it
is unusual, because we have had cases that drag out over years, and in
many cases, of course, they never get an exit visa.
Senator COOPER. Well, perhaps without reference to time, from your
experience, have you found that--do you know whether it was difficult
for a Soviet citizen, such as Marina Oswald, even though she might be
married to an American--that it is difficult for them to secure an exit
visa from the Soviet Union?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Yes; it is very difficult.
Senator COOPER. Do you know the basis for that? Is it that they do not
want to permit the exit of any Soviet citizen?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I think that except in the cases of rather elderly
people, they have not wanted any of their people to leave permanently.
They let them go on tourist trips abroad, but not for permanent
residence. As you possibly know, leaving the Soviet Union without
permission is one of the most severely punished crimes you can commit
in the Soviet Union.
Senator COOPER. What was that?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Leaving without permission.
Senator COOPER. Would the fact that there was a child born to Lee
Oswald and Marina Oswald have altered this practice of the Soviet
Union, as far as any experience that you have had or any knowledge you
have had about such cases?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I think the existence of a child born in the
Soviet Union would normally make it more difficult for a person to
secure an exit visa.
Mr. SLAWSON. Mr. Ambassador, in the facts of the Oswald case they
applied to leave the Soviet Union, of course, well before their first
child was born, and in fact probably received Soviet permission to
leave in late December 1961, and the child, I believe, was born in
February 1962--although the Oswalds in fact did not leave until very
early June 1962.
They nevertheless had received Soviet permission to do so before the
child was born.
In light of that fact, could you comment further upon the perhaps
greater difficulty of leaving when you have a child?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Well, I think probably having once processed the
case and agreed to let the husband and wife leave, that they would have
been more inclined then to let the child leave than if the case had
been considered after the child was born.
Senator COOPER. I take it the policy of the United States would be
the reverse--that is, because Marina was the wife of Lee Oswald, and
because the baby had been born, the practice of the United States would
be to grant a passport to Marina for the child.
Ambassador THOMPSON. I believe that is right, on compassionate grounds.
Senator COOPER. Are you familiar with the testimony about a loan that
was made to the Oswalds in order to help them get back to the United
States?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I have read in the press that they had received
the normal loan.
Senator COOPER. Can you say anything about that as a practice of the
American Government?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I only know that in general where a citizen wishes
to return to the United States and doesn't have the means to do so,
that we frequently do assist them. This goes back many years. But I
haven't been myself concerned in this for probably 25 years, or even
more.
Senator COOPER. But is it the practice that if a determination has been
made that the individual is an American citizen, therefore entitled to
what protections are given to American citizens, if necessary, loans
will be made to assist them to return to the United States? Is that
about the basis of the policy?
Ambassador THOMPSON. That is correct; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. I think that is all I have.
Mr. DULLES. Did you have any conversations at any time while you were
Ambassador or after you returned to the United States with any Soviet
official with regard to the Oswald case?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I discussed with the Soviet Ambassador the desire
of the Commission to receive any documentation that they might have
available, but I did not in any way discuss the case itself, nor did
the Soviet official with whom I talked.
Mr. DULLES. And do you know of any conversations of that nature that
any other official of the Department had in connection with the Oswald
case?
Ambassador THOMPSON. I do not myself know of any.
Mr. DULLES. You probably would, would you not, if that had taken
place--of any importance?
Ambassador THOMPSON. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Your testimony is you have no knowledge of any other
conversations other than that of the Secretary of State, in connection
with communications to and from the Soviet Government on this case?
Ambassador THOMPSON. That is correct. I know of no other cases where it
was discussed with Soviet officials.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have.
Mr. SLAWSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
(Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)
_Wednesday, September 2, 1964_