Mr. WEISSMAN. Now, in the Lavender Lounge, the reason we went there, is
we were dickering with the owners of the Lavender Lounge----
Mr. JENNER. Name him.
Mr. WEISSMAN. L. S. Brotherton. We wanted to lease a club that he had
that was closed down, called the Beachcomber, in a suburb of Dallas.
And we had been in there several times and had talked to him about
leasing this. In other words, we were looking for something that would
give us an income so we could operate a little bit. And that never
worked out. He wanted too much money, and we didn't have it.
Mr. JENNER. In any of these negotiations that were carried on by you or
your associates, was the name Jack Ruby ever mentioned as having any
possible interest whatsoever in any of those groups?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein up
to--at anytime prior to November 24, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; never.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have any information or any knowledge or any
notion or feeling that Larrie Schmidt or any of your associates knew
of or had any association with Jack Ruby or otherwise known as Jack
Rubenstein?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think I can state pretty emphatically no.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any communications of any kind or character,
written notes, telephone calls, or otherwise, that you know about or
knew about then to or from Jack Ruby?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear of the name Jack Ruby?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think he shot Oswald some time in the afternoon
or the morning--since Bill and I had neither a radio or TV in the
apartment--we were in the apartment all day.
Mr. JENNER. All day that Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; we had heard about it that night.
Mr. JENNER. That is the 24th of November 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. If that is when Oswald was shot.
Mr. JENNER. And you first became aware of Oswald being shot the night
or evening of the 24th?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That Sunday?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes. I don't recall exactly how. I think Larrie
telephoned us, and told us that.
Mr. JENNER. This is the first time we have mentioned the name Oswald.
Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald prior to your going to
Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of the name Lee Harvey Oswald at any time
prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the name ever mentioned in your presence?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from what you have said that you did not know a
man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WEISSMAN. We were sitting in a bar, right after President Kennedy's
assassination.
Mr. JENNER. This was the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was Bill Burley, myself, and Larrie. We had
made--we were to meet Larrie and Joe Grinnan at the Ducharme Club.
Mr. JENNER. For what meal?
Mr. WEISSMAN. For luncheon. We were supposed to meet him at 12:30 or
1 o'clock, I forget which--about 1 o'clock. And I had a 12:30 on the
button, as a matter of fact--I had an appointment to sell a carpet out
in the Garland section of Texas--it was a 2:30 appointment. And I was
in a hurry to get to meet Larrie and finish the lunch, and whatever
business they wanted to talk about I didn't know. So I looked at my
watch. I remember specifically it was 12:30, because at that time
Bill had been driving my car. He had quit the carpet company and was
looking for another job. He had looked at a franchise arrangement for
insecticides. He picked me up. He was waiting for me from 10 after 12
to 12:30. We got into the car. I am a great news bug. So I turned the
radio on, looking for a news station. And they had--at that time, as I
turned the radio on, the announcer said, "There has been a rumor that
President Kennedy has been shot." So we didn't believe it. It was just
a little too far out to believe.
And after several minutes, it began to take on some substance about
the President's sedan speeding away, somebody hearing shots and
people laying on the ground. In other words, the way the reporters
were covering it. I don't recall exactly what they said. And, at this
time--we were going to go to the Ducharme Club through downtown Dallas.
We were heading for the area about two blocks adjacent to the Houston
Street viaduct. And then we heard about the police pulling all sorts of
people--somebody said they saw somebody and gave a description. And the
police were pulling people off the street and so forth. So Bill and I
didn't want to get involved in this. So we took a roundabout route. We
got lost for a while. Anyway, we finally wound up at the other side of
Dallas, and we were at the Ducharme Club.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, was Mr. Schmidt there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He was waiting for me. But Joe Grinnan wasn't there.
He had heard this thing and took off. I guess he wanted to hide or
something.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, because the way it was right away, the announcers,
even before it was ascertained that President Kennedy was dead, or that
he had really been shot, that it was a rightwing plot and so forth. And
he had every reason to be frightened.
Mr. JENNER. Why did he have every reason to be frightened?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Because, let's face it, the public feeling would suddenly
be very antirightwing, and no telling what would happen if a mob got
together and discovered him. They would tear him apart.
Bill and I were frightened to the point because I knew about the
ad. And I knew exactly what--at least I felt in my own mind I knew
what people would believe. They would read the ad and so forth, and
associate you with this thing, somehow, one way or another. So we went
to another bar--I don't remember the name of it--the Ducharme Club was
closed, by the way, that afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. When you reached the Ducharme Club, it was closed, but you
found Mr. Schmidt there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie was waiting on the corner. He got in the car. We
sat and talked for a few minutes. We went to another bar a few blocks
away. We drank beer and watched television. And we had been in the bar,
I guess, about an hour when it come over that this patrolman Tippit had
been shot, and they trapped some guy in a movie theater. And maybe half
an hour, an hour later, it came out this fellow's name was Lee Harvey
Oswald. This is the first time I ever heard the name.
Mr. JENNER. What was said at that time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. By us?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. When it was announced it was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. WEISSMAN. We were relieved.
Mr. JENNER. Anything said about it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't recall. First, what was said, like, I hope he is
not a member of the Walker group--something like that--I hope he is
not one of Walker's boys. Because it is like a clique, and it is guilt
by association from thereafter. So it came over later this guy was a
Marxist. This was the same afternoon, I believe. It was found out this
fellow was a Marxist. And then the announcers--they left the rightwing
for a little while, and started going to the left, and I breathed a
sigh of relief. After 4 hours in the bar, Bill and I went back to the
apartment, and Larrie went to the Ducharme Club. He was afraid to go
home.
Mr. JENNER. I thought the Ducharme Club was closed.
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was open at that time. We drove by. It was open.
Larrie went in. We dropped him off there. And Bill and I went back to
our apartment. We just waited. We knew we were going to get involved in
this thing because of the ad. And we figured that if anybody at all in
Dallas was on the ball, they know who we were and where we were. So we
waited. Nothing happened. We waited there until we left. We barely left
that house. As a matter of fact----
Mr. JENNER. You remained in the house all that evening, did you--the
apartment?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think the--yes; late that evening Larrie came home.
Mr. DULLES. That is Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I think Larrie went home late that evening, and Bill
and I met him there.
Mr. JENNER. You went to Larrie's home?
Mr. WEISSMAN. To Larrie's apartment; yes. And I said what are we going
to do? And Larrie said, "Well"--he had talked to Joe Grinnan, and Joe
said don't say anything, don't do anything, don't get any more involved
than you have to, lay low, keep out of it, it is going to be pretty
bad. And it was. Thereafter, a day or so later--
Mr. JENNER. What did you mean by that--it is going to be pretty bad?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In other words--this is just exactly the way it worked
out. For example----
Mr. JENNER. You are now explaining what you mean by "and it was"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right. Stanley Marcus, who was a Dallas businessman,
financier----
Mr. JENNER. Nieman Marcus?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Of the Nieman Marcus group, yes, and he was a well-known
and rather very rabid liberal. And sure enough, even though the
following day it was then established that Oswald was a Marxist and
so forth, and there was some question as to whether or not it was a
Communist plot, pros and cons, and Marcus put his 2 cents in in the
Dallas Times Herald, and he starts blaming the rightwing for the
trouble. And I was told--I didn't see this----
Mr. JENNER. This was on the 23d now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was on the following day; yes, sir. And, in other
words, he and friends of his, I guess, did everything they could
to solidify their position as being always in the right, and throw
the blame, even though Oswald is obviously a Marxist--they tried to
transfer the blame to the rightwing. They had us on the run and they
were going to keep it that way.
Mr. JENNER. How did this come to your attention?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Just by reading the newspapers.
Mr. JENNER. The Dallas Times Herald and the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. WEISSMAN. There was very little in the Morning News about the
rightwing, that was antirightwing, and the Dallas Times Herald was full
of it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please delineate what you mean by "us" who were
on the run?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I mean any conservative in Dallas at that time was
keeping quiet.
Mr. JENNER. Including yourself and the other men you mentioned?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Including myself and everybody I was associated with;
yes, sir. And a day or so after that, I think it was Sunday or Monday,
I had suggested to Larrie, and I spoke to Joe Grinnan on the phone,
that maybe I should call the FBI and give them the story on this ad.
And he said, "Now, look, if they want you, they will find you. They
know where you are, probably. So if they want you, they will find you."
So I waited. And several times I was going to make that phone call, and
I did not. Then finally we just ran out of money.
Mr. JENNER. You are probably a few days beyond the 23d now?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Right; I am. I am going now--everything was rather
stable, static up until the Wednesday, the following Wednesday, when I
left Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I want to complete your whole day of the 23d before you
move beyond that. Did you or Bill leave your apartment on the 23d?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; we were over at Larrie's house. I don't remember
exactly the times. We had been to Larrie's place several times.
Mr. JENNER. Were you in the Dallas downtown business district at
anytime on the 23d?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I don't think so--no--no, as a matter of fact. In fact, I
didn't get around to the business district until--yes. We went into the
outer edge of the downtown area to get to the post office, to pick up
the letters.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. On the 23d you went to the post office box
and picked up the 60-odd letters that you have at home in New York.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That is right. And then we went directly back to the
apartment, and opened these letters.
Mr. JENNER. That is all you did in the downtown area?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; so far as I can recollect.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately what time of the day was that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That was in the morning. That was early in the
morning--about 8 or 9 o'clock, I guess, in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any telephone calls at your apartment that
day?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I received--Larrie called us, I know. I don't recall what
was said. It was just like, "What is happening--everything okay?"