Chief Justice WARREN. Mr. Ruby, I am not questioning your story at all.
I wanted you to know the background of this thing, and to know that it
was with us only hearsay. But I did feel that our record should show
that we would ask you the question and that you would answer it, and
you have answered it.
Mr. RUBY. How many days prior to the assassination was that?
Chief Justice WARREN. My recollection is that it was a week or two. Is
that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Did anyone have any knowledge that their beloved President
was going to visit here prior to that time, or what is the definite
time that they knew he was coming to Dallas?
Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I don't know just what those dates are.
Mr. RUBY. I see.
Chief Justice WARREN. I just don't know. Well, we wanted to ask you
that question, because this man had so testified, and we have been
trying ever since to get him to give the source of his information, but
he will not do it, so we will leave that matter as it is.
Mr. RUBY. No; I am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of
you gentlemen in the room, and I don't want anything to be run over
lightly. I want you to dig into it with any biting, any question that
might embarrass me, or anything that might bring up my background,
which isn't so terribly spotted--I have never been a criminal--I have
never been in jail--I know when you live in the city of Chicago and
you are in the livelihood of selling tickets to sporting events, your
lucrative patrons are some of these people, but you don't mean anything
to those people. You may know them as you get acquainted with them at
the sporting events or the ball park.
Chief Justice WARREN. The prizefights?
Mr. RUBY. The prizefights. If that was your means of livelihood,
yet you don't have no other affiliation with them, so when I say I
know them, or what I have read from stories of personalities that
are notorious, that is the extent of my involvement in any criminal
activity.
I have never been a bookmaker. I have never stolen for a living. I am
not a gangster. I have never used a goon squad for union activities.
All I was was a representative to sound out applications for the
American Federation of Labor, and if the employees would sign it, we
would accept them as members.
I never knew what a goon looked like in Chicago, with the exception
when I went to the service.
I never belonged to any subversive organization. I don't know any
subversive people that are against my beloved country.
Mr. RANKIN. You have never been connected with the Communist Party?
Mr. RUBY. Never have. All I have ever done in my life--I had a very
rough start in life, but anything I have done, I at least try to do it
in good taste, whatever I have been active in.
Mr. RANKIN. There was a story that you had a gun with you during the
showup that you described in the large room there.
Mr. RUBY. I will be honest with you. I lied about it. It isn't so. I
didn't have a gun. But in order to make my defense more accurate, to
save your life, that is the reason that statement was made.
Mr. RANKIN. It would be quite helpful to the Commission if you
could--in the first place, I want to get the trip to Cuba. Was that in
1959?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I had to buy a $2 ticket, a pass to get through
Florida.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any other trip to Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. Never; that is the only one that I made.
I stayed at the Volk's Apartments with Mr. McWillie, lived in his
apartment. Ate directly in a place called Wolf's, downstairs. Wouldn't
know how to speak their language. I wouldn't know how to communicate
with them.
I probably had two dates from meeting some young ladies I got to
dancing with, because my dinners were served in the Tropicana.
One thing I forgot to tell you--you are bringing my mind back to a few
things--the owners, the greatest that have been expelled from Cuba, are
the Fox brothers. They own the Tropicana.
Mr. RANKIN. Who are the Fox brothers?
Mr. RUBY. Martin Fox and I can't think of the other name.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where they are located now?
Mr. RUBY. They are in Miami, Fla. They know everything about McWillie,
I heard; and know the officials.
I met McWillie because he came to the club, and he came to the club to
look over the show. And you get to talk to people and meet a lot of
different types of people.
The Fox brothers came to Dallas--I don't know which one it was--to
collect a debt that some man owed the Cotton Gin Co. here.
Do you know their name, Mr. Bowie?
Mr. BOWIE. Murray, or something.
Mr. RUBY. He gave some bad checks on a gambling debt, and they came to
visit me. The lawyer, I think, is Mark Lane. That is the attorney that
was killed in New York?
Chief Justice WARREN. That is the fellow who represents, or did
represent Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. I think I read in the paper where he
no longer represents her.
Mr. RANKIN. He is still alive though.
Chief Justice WARREN. Oh, yes.
Mr. RUBY. There was one Lane that was killed in a taxicab. I thought he
was an attorney in Dallas.
Chief Justice WARREN. That was a Dave Lane.
Mr. RUBY. There is a very prominent attorney in Dallas, McCord. McCord
represents the Fox brothers here. They called me because the Fox
brothers wanted to see me, and I came down to the hotel.
And Mrs. McWillie--Mr. McWillie was married to her at that time--and if
I recall, I didn't show them off to the airport at that time.
This is when they were still living in Havana, the Fox brothers. We had
dinner at--how do you pronounce that restaurant at Love Field? Luau?
That serves this Chinese food.
Dave McCord, I was in his presence, and I was invited out to dinner,
and there was an attorney by the name of Leon. Is he associated with
McCord?
And there was a McClain.
Chief Justice WARREN. Alfred was killed in a taxi in New York.
Mr. RUBY. He was at this dinner meeting I had with McCord. I don't know
if Mrs. McWillie was along. And one of the Fox brothers, because they
had just been awarded the case that this person owns, this Gin Co.,
that was compelled to pay off.
Mr. RANKIN. I think, Mr. Ruby, it would be quite helpful to the
Commission if you could tell, as you recall it, just what you said to
Mr. Sorrels and the others after the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald. Can
you recall that?
Mr. RUBY. The only one I recall Mr. Sorrels in, there were some
incorrect statements made at this time.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us what you said?
Congressman FORD. First, tell us when this took place.
Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the shooting occurred?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Ray Hall was the first one that interrogated me. Wanted
to know my whole background.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us how soon it was? Within a few minutes after
the shooting?
Mr. RUBY. No; I waited in a little room there somewhere upstairs in--I
don't know what floor it was. I don't recall.
Mr. RANKIN. Where did this occur, on the third floor?
Mr. RUBY. One of those floors. I don't know whether it was the third or
second. If you are up on an elevator----
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us any idea of the time after the shooting?
Mr. RUBY. I spent an hour with Mr. Hall, Ray Hall. And I was very much,
I was very much broken up emotionally, and I constantly repeated that
I didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to come back to trial, and those were my
words, constantly repeated to Mr. Hall.
And I heard there was a statement made--now I am skipping--and then I
gave Mr. Hall my complete background about things he wanted to know,
my earlier background going back from the years, and I guess there
was nothing else to say to Hall because as long as I stated why I did
it--it is not like planning a crime and you are confessing something. I
already confessed, and all it took is one sentence why I did it.
Now what else could I have said that you think I could have said?
Refresh my memory a little bit.
Mr. RANKIN. There was a conversation with Mr. Sorrels in which you told
him about the matter. Do you remember that?
Mr. RUBY. The only thing I ever recall I said to Mr. Ray Hall and
Sorrels was, I said, "Being of Jewish faith, I wanted to show my love
for my President and his lovely wife."
After I said whatever I said, then a statement came out that someone
introduced Mr. Sorrels to me and I said, "What are you, a newsman?" Or
something to that effect. Which is really--what I am trying to say is,
the way it sounded is like I was looking for publicity and inquiring if
you are a newsman, I wanted to see you.
But I am certain--I don't recall definitely, but I know in my right
mind, because I know my motive for doing it, and certainly to gain
publicity to take a chance of being mortally wounded, as I said before,
and who else could have timed it so perfectly by seconds.
If it were timed that way, then someone in the police department is
guilty of giving the information as to when Lee Harvey Oswald was
coming down.
I never made a statement. I never inquired from the television man what
time is Lee Harvey Oswald coming down. Because really, a man in his
right mind would never ask that question. I never made the statement
"I wanted to get three more off. Someone had to do it. You wouldn't do
it." I never made those statements.
I never called the man by any obscene name, because as I stated
earlier, there was no malice in me. He was insignificant, to my
feelings for my love for Mrs. Kennedy and our beloved President. He was
nothing comparable to them, so I can't explain it.
I never used any words--as a matter of fact, there were questions at
the hearing with Roy Pryor and a few others--I may have used one word
"a little weasel" or something, but I didn't use it. I don't remember,
because Roy said it. If he said I did, I may have said it.
I never made the statement to anyone that I intended to get him. I
never used the obscene words that were stated.
Anything I said was with emotional feeling of I didn't want Mrs.
Kennedy to come back to trial.
Representative FORD. It has been alleged that you went out to Parkland
Hospital.
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn't go there. They tried to ask me. My sisters asked
me. Some people told my sister that you were there. I am of sound mind.
I never went there. Everything that transpired during the tragedy, I
was at the Morning News Building.
Congressman FORD. You didn't go out there subsequent to the
assassination?
Mr. RUBY. No; in other words, like somebody is trying to make me
something of a martyr in that case. No; I never did.
Does this conflict with my story and yours in great length?
Mr. MOORE. Substantially the same, Jack, as well as I remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything about people of your religion have
guts, or something like that?
Mr. RUBY. I said it. I never said it up there. I said, I could have
said, "Weren't you afraid of getting your head blown off?" I said,
"Well, to be truthful, I have a little nerve." I could have said that.
Now I could have said to the doctor that was sent to me, Bromberg,
because there is a certain familiarity you have, because it is like you
have an attorney representing you, it is there. I mean, it is there.
But I did say this. McWillie made a statement about me, something to
the effect that "he is considered a pretty rough guy," this McWillie.
He said, "One thing about Jack Ruby, he runs this club and no one runs
over him."
And you have a different type of entertainment here than any other part
of the country, our type of entertainment.
But I don't recall that. I could have said the sentimental feeling that
I may have used.
Representative FORD. When you flew to Cuba, where did you go from
Dallas en route? What was the step-by-step process by which you arrived
at Havana?
Mr. RUBY. I think I told Mr. Moore I stopped in New Orleans. Sometime
I stopped in New Orleans, and I don't remember if I stopped in Florida
or New Orleans, but I know I did stop in New Orleans, because I bought
some Carioca rum coming back.
I know I was to Miami on a stopover. It could have been on the way
back. I only went to Cuba once, so naturally, when I bought the
Carioca rum, there was a couple of fellows that sell tickets for Delta
Airlines, and they know me like I know you, and I am sure you gentlemen
have spoken to them, and they were to tell me where to go in Havana,
and have a ball, and I told them why I was going there, and who I was
going to look up, and everything else.
Representative FORD. They were Delta Airlines employees in New Orleans
or Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. No; in New Orleans. Evidently I went out to the Delta
Airlines at Love Field and caught the plane. I may have taken the
flight--here is what could have happened. I could have made a double
stop from Havana on the way back in taking in Miami, and then taking
another plane to New Orleans, I am not certain.
But I only made one trip to Havana. Yet I know I was in Miami, Fla. and
I was in New Orleans.
And the next time I went to New Orleans, when I tried to look up some
showgirl by the name of Jada, I stopped in to see the same fellows at
Delta Airlines.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall going up the elevator after the shooting of
Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. That is so small to remember, I guess it is automatic, you
know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have this gun a long while that you did the
shooting with?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't carry it all the time?
Mr. RUBY. I did. I had it in a little bag with money constantly. I
carry my money.
Chief Justice WARREN. Congressman, do you have anything further?
Mr. RUBY. You can get more out of me. Let's not break up too soon.
Representative FORD. When you got to Havana, who met you in Havana?
Mr. RUBY. McWillie. Now here is what happened. One of the Fox brothers
came to visit me in Dallas with his wife. They came to the Vegas Club
with Mrs. McWillie, and we had taken some pictures. 8 x 10's.
Evidently the Foxes were in exile at that time, because when I went to
visit McWillie, when he sent me the plane tickets, they looked through
my luggage and they saw a photograph of Mr. Fox and his wife. They
didn't interrogate, but they went through everything and held me up for
hours.
Representative FORD. Castro employees?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because evidently, in my ignorance, I didn't realize I
was bringing a picture that they knew was a bitter enemy. At that time
they knew that the Fox brothers weren't going to jail, or something was
going to happen.
Whether it was they were in exile at that time. I don't know.
But they came to my club, the Vegas Club, and we had taken pictures.
Mr. McWillie was waiting for me, and he saw me go through the customs
line for a couple of hours, and he said, "Jack, they never did this to
anyone before." Evidently, they had me pretty well lined up as to where
I come in the picture of Mr. Rivera Fox. I can't think of his name.
Representative FORD. You spent 8 days there in Havana?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; approximately.