(Members present at this point: The Chairman, Representative Ford, Mr.
Dulles, and Mr. McCloy.)
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, we have witnesses today who are Thomas
J. Kelley of the Secret Service; Leo J. Gauthier, Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt,
and Robert A. Frazier of the FBI. They are going to testify concerning
certain onsite tests made in Dallas at the scene of the assassination,
and of preliminary studies which were made prior to the onsite tests at
Dallas.
May we have them sworn in as a group?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Will you rise and raise your right hands, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KELLEY. I do.
Mr. GAUTHIER. I do.
Mr. SHANEYFELT. I do.
Mr. FRAZIER. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, gentlemen. Mr. Kelley, will you take
the witness chair, please? Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. KELLEY. Thomas J. Kelley.
Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed?
Mr. KELLEY. I am employed by the U.S. Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. In what capacity?
Mr. KELLEY. I am an inspector.
Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, of what do your duties consist, Mr.
Kelley?
Mr. KELLEY. As an inspector, I am part of the chief's headquarters
staff. I conduct office inspections of our field and protective
installations, and report on their actions to the chief.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service?
Mr. KELLEY. Twenty-two years.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in the planning of the onsite tests at
Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. KELLEY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you participate in the making of those tests?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. On what date was the onsite testing made?
Mr. KELLEY. It was a week ago Sunday.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be May 24, 1964?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What car was used for testing purposes?
Mr. KELLEY. The car that was used was a 1956 specially built Cadillac,
open, a convertible, seven-passenger Cadillac. It has a termination
of 679-X, the Secret Service calls it. It is a car that is used as a
followup car to the President's car when he is in a motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that car actually in the motorcade on November 22,
1963, in Dallas?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why the car in which the
President rode on November 22 was not used?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes; the car in which the President rode has been modified
by a body builder in Cincinnati, the Hess & Eisenhardt Co. of
Cincinnati.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you have a diagram showing the dimensions of the
Secret Service followup car which was used during the onsite tests?
Mr. KELLEY. I have. It was felt that the best simulation of the test
could be presented by having a car that was similar to the car in which
the President was riding, which was also an open Lincoln convertible.
Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to mark the
diagram of the followup car as Commission Exhibit No. 871 and move its
admission into evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 871 for
identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have diagrams showing the dimensions of the
Presidential car?
Mr. KELLEY. I have.
Mr. SPECTER. I would like to have that marked as Commission Exhibit No.
872 and move for its admission into evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 872 for
identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Without specifying all of the details, Inspector Kelley,
are the followup car and the Presidential car generally similar in
dimensions?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes; they are. There are very few, of course,
seven-passenger convertible cars in existence, and these are
specially--these cars are specially built for us by the Lincoln--the
Ford Motor Co. and the followup car by the General Motors Co.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what seating arrangements are present
in each of those cars in between the permanent front seat and the
permanent rear seat?
Mr. KELLEY. There are two jump seats that can be opened up for riders
in each of the cars. In the Presidential followup car, these jump seats
are usually occupied by Secret Service agents.
In the President's car, they are occupied by the President's guests.
On the day of the assassination, of course, the jump seats were
occupied by Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kelley, have you brought with you two photographs
depicting the interior of the President's car?
Mr. KELLEY. I have. These are photographs of the interior of the
President's car which is known to us as 100-X.
Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, I would like to mark one of
these photographs as Commission Exhibit No. 873, and move its admission
into evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 873 for
identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. I would like to mark the second photograph as Commission
Exhibit No. 874 and move, also, its admission into evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 874 for
identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what Exhibit No. 873 depicts,
please?
Mr. KELLEY. Exhibit No. 873 is a photograph of the interior of the
rear section of the 100-X, the President's car, showing the seating
arrangement in the car and the jump seats are in an open position.
Mr. McCLOY. As of what time were these photographs taken?
Mr. KELLEY. I am sorry, Commissioner. I don't know just when those
photographs were taken. They were taken some time in the last 2 years.
Mr. SPECTER. As to Exhibits Nos. 873 and 874, do they accurately depict
the condition of the President's car as of November 22, 1963?
Mr. KELLEY. They do, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what Exhibit No. 874 shows?
Mr. KELLEY. Exhibit No. 874 is another photograph of the car taken from
the rear, and it shows the relative positions of the jump seats in an
open position as they relate to the back seat of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the record may be clear, which Commission number
has been given to the diagram of the President's car?
Mr. KELLEY. The President's car is Exhibit No. 872.
Mr. SPECTER. And the followup car diagram is what?
Mr. KELLEY. Exhibit No. 871.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether these photographs were taken before or
after the assassination?
Mr. KELLEY. Before the assassination.
Mr. DULLES. Did the car that you used for this test--did that car have
the seat lifting capacity that I understand the President's car had?
Mr. KELLEY. No; it did not, sir. I might say that there is in the
Commission's records photographs of the President's car after the
assassination, showing the condition of it after the assassination, at
the garage.
Mr. SPECTER. On the President's car itself, what is the distance on the
right edge of the right jump seat, that is to say from the right edge
of the right jump seat to the door on the right side?
Mr. KELLEY. There is 6 inches of clearance between the jump seat and
the door.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the relative position of the jump seat to the
rear seat on the Presidential automobile?
Mr. KELLEY. There is 8-1/2 inches between the back of the jump seat and
the front of the back seat of the President's car, the rear seat.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the relative height of the jump seat and the
rear seat?
Mr. KELLEY. The jump seat is 3 inches lower than the back seat in its
bottom position. That is, the back seat of the President's car had a
mechanism which would raise it 10-1/2 inches. But at the time of the
assassination, the seat was in its lowest position.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the differential between the jump seats and
the rear seat on the Secret Service followup car?
Mr. KELLEY. The jump seat of the Secret Service car is a little closer
to the right door.
However, the seating arrangement is not exactly the same in these cars,
in that there is a portion of a padding that comes around on the rear
seat.
But relatively, when two persons are seated in this car, one in the
rear seat and one in the jump seat, they are in the same alinement as
they were in the President's car.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in response to your statement
that the back seat was in its lowest position at the time of the
assassination? How do you know that?
Mr. KELLEY. That is a result of questioning of the people who took the
car, the driver who took the car from the hospital to the plane. This
was one of the drivers of the Presidential car. There was nobody who
touched the car until it got back to the White House garage. It was in
his custody all the time. And he did not move it.
When it was in the White House garage, it was at its lowest point.
Mr. DULLES. And there would be no opportunity to lower it from the time
the President was shot?
Mr. KELLEY. No, sir. The President, of course, operates that thing
himself. But when it was examined, at the time it was examined, and it
was in the custody of this man all the time, it had not been touched.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of President Kennedy?
Mr. KELLEY. He was 72-1/2 inches.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when a man was placed in the same
position in the Secret Service followup car as that in which President
Kennedy sat in the Presidential car when the tests were simulated on
May 24th of this year?
Mr. KELLEY. I was.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of that individual?
Mr. KELLEY. He was an FBI agent by the name of James W. Anderton.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the height of Mr. Anderton?
Mr. KELLEY. He was 72-1/2 inches.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the height of Governor Connally?
Mr. KELLEY. Governor Connally was 6 foot 4.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the height of the Governor himself or the
Governor's stand-in?
Mr. KELLEY. It was my understanding that Governor Connally was--6 foot
2, I guess. The Governor's stand-in, Mr. Doyle Williams, was 6 foot 4.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those two individuals were seated in
the Secret Service followup car?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what adjustment was made, if any, so that the relative
positions of those two men were the same as the positioning of
President Kennedy and Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Mr. KELLEY. The officials at Hess Eisenhardt, who have the original
plans of the President's car, conducted a test to ascertain how high
from the ground a person 72-1/2 inches would be seated in this car
before its modification. And it was ascertained that the person would
be 52.78 inches from the ground--that is, taking into consideration the
flexion of the tires, the flexion of the cushions that were on the car
at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say 52.78 inches, which individual would that be?
Mr. KELLEY. That would be the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And what part of his body?
Mr. KELLEY. The top of the head would be 52.78 inches from the ground.
When Mr. Anderton was placed in the followup car, it was found that the
top of his head was 62 inches from the ground. There was an adjustment
made so that there would be--the stand-in for Governor Connally would
be in relatively the same position, taking into consideration the
3-inch difference in the jump seat and the 2-inch difference in his
height.
Mr. SPECTER. Considering the 3-inch difference in the jump seat--and
I believe it would be an inch and a half difference in height between
President Kennedy and Governor Connally--how much higher, then,
approximately, was President Kennedy sitting than the Governor on
November 22?