Mr. McCONE. Well, I think the basic regulations should be examined
very carefully to be sure that they are copper-riveted down and
absolutely tight. What I am saying, however, is because of the vast
number of Americans who go abroad and stay in foreign countries for
indefinite periods of time, it would be an impossible task to transmit
all information available in the State Department and Immigration
Service as files to the Central Intelligence Agency. It would not be a
productive exercise. What must be transmitted and is being transmitted,
while I cannot recite the exact regulations is information that is,
becomes, known to the various embassies of suspicious Americans that
might have been recruited and defected, and then returned so that they
would be agents in place.
Representative FORD. In this case, Oswald attempted to defect, he did
not, he subsequently sought the right to return to the United States,
he had contact with the Embassy. Was the Central Intelligence Agency
informed of these steps, step by step, by the Department of State?
Mr. McCONE. You might answer that.
Mr. HELMS. Mr. Ford, in order to answer this question precisely I
would have to have the file in front of me. I have not looked at it
in some time so I don't have it all that clearly in mind. But it is
my impression that we were not informed step by step. When I say that
there is no requirement that I am aware of that the State Department
should inform us and when I said a moment ago that we had minimal
information from them, this was not in any sense a critical comment but
a statement of fact.
But an American going to the American Embassy would be handled by
the Embassy officials, either consular or otherwise. This would be a
matter well within the purview of the State Department to keep all
the way through, because we do not have responsibility in the Central
Intelligence Agency for the conduct or behavior or anything else of
American citizens when they are abroad unless there is some special
consideration applying to an individual, or someone in higher authority
requests assistance from us. So that the State Department, I think,
quite properly would regard this matter as well within their purview
to handle themselves within the Embassy or from the Embassy back to
the Department of State without involving the Agency in it while these
events were occurring.
Representative FORD. I think it could be argued, however, that the
uniqueness of this individual case was such that the Department of
State might well have contacted the Central Intelligence Agency to
keep them abreast of the developments as they transpired. This is
not--and when I say this, I mean the Oswald case--is not an ordinary
run-of-the-mill-type of case. It is far from it. Even back in the time,
well, from the time he went, and particularly as time progressed, and
he made application to return, there is nothing ordinary about the
whole situation.
Mr. McCONE. That is quite correct; there is no question about that.
Representative FORD. And I am only suggesting that if the regulations
were not adequate at the time and are not now, maybe something ought to
be done about it.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McCone, when you said that supplying all of the
information about U.S. citizens who went abroad and came back to
the country would not be a profitable exercise, did that comment
include the thought that such an intrusion upon all citizens would be
questionable?
Mr. McCONE. Such an intrusion?
Mr. RANKIN. Upon their right to travel.
Mr. McCONE. Well, I think this would have a bearing on it. I did
not have that particular matter in mind when I made that statement,
however. I was just thinking of the----
Mr. RANKIN. Burden?
Mr. McCONE. Of the burden of vast numbers involved.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you you have any thought in regard to whether it would
be an intrusion upon their rights?
Mr. McCONE. Well, that would be a matter of how it was handled.
Certainly, if it was handled in a way that the counterpart of providing
the information was to impose restrictions on them, then it would be an
intrusion on their rights.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. May I inquire?
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper.
Senator COOPER. I missed the first part of Mr. McCone's testimony; I
went to answer a quorum call. Perhaps the question has been asked.
It has been brought into evidence that a number of people in the
Embassy talked to Oswald when he first defected, and the various
communications with the Embassy and, of course, when he left to come
back to the United States. Have we been able to ascertain the names of
officials in the Embassy or employees with whom Oswald talked on these
various occasions?
Mr. McCONE. I am not familiar with them; no.
Mr. HELMS. Neither am I, sir.
Mr. McCONE. I presume that the Department's inquiries have covered it.
Senator COOPER. Is it possible to ascertain the names of those
employees?
Mr. RANKIN. Senator Cooper, I can answer that. We have inquired of
the State Department for that information, and are in the process of
obtaining it all.
Senator COOPER. Taking into consideration your answers to the previous
question, would it have been possible in your judgment to have secured
more comprehensive information about the activities of Oswald in Russia?
Mr. McCONE. It would not have been possible for the Central
Intelligence Agency to have secured such information because we do not
have the resources to gain such information.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything more? Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD. Did the Central Intelligence Agency investigate
any aspects of Oswald's trip to Mexico?
Mr. McCONE. Yes; we did.
Representative FORD. Can you give us any information on that?
Mr. McCONE. Yes; we were aware that Oswald did make a trip to Mexico
City and it was our judgment that he was there in the interest of
insuring transit privileges and that he made contact with the Cuban
Embassy while he was there.
We do not know the precise results of his effort, but we assumed,
because he returned to the United States, he was unsuccessful. We have
examined to every extent we can, and using all resources available to
us every aspect of his activity and we could not verify that he was
there for any other purpose or that his trip to Mexico was in any way
related to his later action in assassinating President Kennedy.
Representative FORD. Did the Central Intelligence Agency make any
investigation of any alleged connection between Oswald and the Castro
government?
Mr. McCONE. Yes; we investigated that in considerable detail, because
information came to us through a third party that he had carried on
a rather odd discussion with Cuban officials in the Cuban Embassy in
Mexico City. The allegation was that he had received under rather odd
circumstances a substantial amount of money in the Cuban Embassy, and
the statement was made by one who claimed to have seen this transaction
take place. After a very thorough and detailed examination of the
informer, it finally turned out by the informer's own admission that
the information was entirely erroneous, and was made for the purpose
of advancing the informer's own standing with the Central Intelligence
Agency and the U.S. Government and it was subsequently retracted by the
informer in its entirety.
Representative FORD. Was there any other evidence or alleged
evidence----
Mr. McCONE. Parenthetically, I might add a word for the record that
the date that the informer gave as to the date in time of this
alleged transaction was impossible because through other, from other,
information we determined that Oswald was in the United States at that
particular time.
Representative FORD. Did the Central Intelligence Agency ever make an
investigation or did it ever check on Mr. Ruby's trip to Cuba or any
connections he might have had with the Castro government?
Mr. McCONE. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HELMS. We had no information.
Mr. McCONE. We had no information.
Representative FORD. Central Intelligence Agency has no information of
any connections of Ruby to the Castro government?
Mr. McCONE. That is right.
Representative FORD. Did you ever make a check of that?
Mr. HELMS. We checked our records to see if we had information and
found we did not.
Representative FORD. What would that indicate, the fact that you
checked your records?
Mr. HELMS. That would indicate that if we had received information
from our own resources, that the Cubans were involved with Mr. Ruby in
something which would be regarded as subversive, we would then have
it in our files. But we received no such information, and I don't,
by saying this, mean that he did not. I simply say we don't have any
record of this.
Representative FORD. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Director, thank you very much, sir, for coming and being
with us and we appreciate the help your department has given to us.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Thursday, June 4, 1964_
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. KELLEY, LEO J. GAUTHIER, LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT,
AND ROBERT A. FRAZIER
The President's Commission met at 2:10 p.m., on June 4, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren. Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, and John J.
McCloy, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Waggoner Carr,
attorney general of Texas; and Charles Murray, observer.