sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean; from_ all _your
filthiness and from_ all _your idols will I cleanse you――I will also
save you from_ all _your uncleannesses_, chapter xxxvi. verse 25. 29.
No promise can be more clear. And to this the apostle plainly refers
in that exhortation, _Having these promises, let us cleanse ourselves,
from all filthiness of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the
fear of God_. _2 Corinthians_ vii. 1. Equally clear and express is that
antient promise, _The Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the
heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with
all thy soul_. _Deuteronomy_ xxx. 6.
_Q._ 5. But does any _assertion_ answerable to this, occur in the new
Testament?
_A._ There does, and that laid down in the plainest terms. So St.
_John_ iii. 8. _For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil._ The works of the devil, without
any limitation or restriction: but all sin is the work of the devil.
Parallel to which is that assertion of St. _Paul_, _Ephesians_ v. 25,
27. _Christ loved the church and gave himself for it――that he might
present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or
any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish._
And to the same effect is his assertion in the 8th of the _Romans_,
(verse 3, 4.) _God sent his Son_――that the _righteousness of the law
might be fulfilled in us, walking not after the flesh but after the
Spirit_.
_Q._ 6. Does the new Testament afford any farther ground, for expecting
to be saved from all sin?
_A._ Undoubtedly it does, both in those prayers and commands which are
equivalent to the strongest assertions.
_Q._ 7. What prayers do you mean?
_A._ Prayers for entire sanctification; which were there no such thing,
would be mere mockery of God. Such, in particular, are 1. _Deliver
us from evil_; or rather, _from the evil one_. Now when this is done,
when we are delivered from all evil, there can be no sin remaining. 2.
_Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe
on me through their word: that they all may be one, as thou Father
art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: I in them
and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one._ John xvii. 20,
21, 23.
3. _I bow my knees unto the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ――that he would grant you――that ye being rooted and grounded in
love, may be able to comprehend with all saints, what is the breadth,
and length, ♦and depth, and height: and to know the love of Christ,
which passeth knowledge, that he might be filled with all the fulness
of God._ Ephesians iii. 14, 16‒19. 4. _The very God of peace sanctify
you wholly. And I pray God, your whole spirit, soul, and body, be
preserved blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ._
1 Thessalonians v. 23.
♦ insert “and depth” per Errata
_Q._ 8. What command is there to the same effect?
_A._ 1. _Be ye perfect as your Father which is in heaven is perfect._
Matthew vi. ultima.
2. _Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all
thy soul, and with all thy mind._ Matthew xxii. 37. But if the love of
God fill all the heart, there can be no sin there.
_Q._ 9. But how does it appear, that this is to be done before the
article of death?
_A._ First, from the very nature of a command, which is not given to
the dead, but to the living.
Therefore, _Thou shalt love God with all thy heart_, cannot mean, Thou
shalt do this when thou diest, but while thou livest.
Secondly, from express texts of scripture:
1. _The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men;
teaching us, that having renounced_ (ἀπειπάμενοι) _ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this
present world: looking for――――the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus
Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from_ all
_iniquity; and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good
works_. Titus ii. 11‒14.
2. _He hath raised up an horn of salvation for us――to perform the
mercy promised to our fathers; the oath which he sware to our father_
Abraham, _that he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of
the hands of our enemies, should serve him without fear, in holiness
and righteousness before him, all the days of our life_. Luke i. verse
69, &c.
_Q._ 10. Is there any example in scripture of persons who had attained
to this?
_A._ Yes. St. _John_ and all those of whom he says in his first epistle,
chapter iv. verse 17. _Herein is our love made perfect, that we may
have confidence in the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in
this world._
_Q._ 11. But why are there not more examples of this kind, recorded in
the new Testament?
_A._ It does not become us to be peremptory in this matter. One reason
might possibly be, Because the apostles wrote to the church, while it
was in a state of infancy. Therefore they might mention such persons
the more sparingly, least they should give strong meat to babes.
_Q._ 12. Can you shew one such example now? Where is he that is thus
perfect?
_A._ To some who make this enquiry, one might answer, If I knew one
here, I would not tell _you_. For you do not enquire out of love. You
are like _Herod_. You only seek the young child, to slay it.
But more directly we answer, There are numberless reasons, why there
should be few (if any indisputable) examples. What inconveniences would
this bring on the person himself, set as a mark for all to shoot at?
What a temptation would it be to others, not only to men who knew not
God, but to believers themselves? How hardly would they refrain from
idolizing such a person? And yet, how unprofitable to gain-sayers?
For if they hear not _Moses_ and the prophets, Christ and his apostles,
neither would they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
_Q._ 13. Suppose one had attained to this, would you advise him to
speak of it?
_A._ Not to them who know not God. It would only provoke them to
contradict and blaspheme: nor to any without some particular reason,
without some particular good in view. And then they should have an
especial care, to avoid all appearance of boasting.
_Q._ 14. Is it a sin, not to believe those who say they have attained?
_A._ By no means, even though they said true. We ought not hastily to
believe, but to suspend our judgment, till we have full and strong
proof.
_Q._ 15. But are we not apt to have a secret distaste to any who say,
They are saved from all sin?
_A._ It is very possible we may; and that on several grounds: partly
from a concern for the honour of God, and the good of souls who may
be hurt, yea, or turned out of the way, if these are not what they
profess: partly from a kind of implicit envy at those who speak of
higher attainments than our own: and partly from our slowness and
unreadiness of heart, to believe the works of God.
_Q._ 16. Does not the harshly preaching perfection tend to bring
believers into a kind of bondage, or slavish fear?
_A._ It does. Therefore we should always place it in the most amiable
light, so that it may excite only hope, joy, and desire.
_Q._ 17. Why may we not continue in the joy of faith even till we are
made perfect?
_A._ Why indeed? Since holy grief does not quench this joy: since even
while we are under the cross, while we deeply partake of the sufferings
of Christ, we may rejoice with joy unspeakable.
_Q._ 18. Do we not discourage believers from rejoicing evermore?
_A._ We ought not so to do. Let them all their life long, rejoice unto
God, so it be with reverence. And even if lightness or pride should mix
with their joy, let us not strike at the joy itself (this is the gift
of God) but at that lightness or pride, that the evil may cease and the
good remain.
_Q._ 19. Ought we to be anxiously careful about perfection? Least we
should die before we have attained?
_A._ In no wise. We ought to be thus _careful for nothing_, neither
spiritual nor temporal.
_Q._ 20. But ought we not to be _troubled_, on account of the sinful
nature which still remains in us?
_A._ It is good for us to have a deep sense of this, and to be much
ashamed before the Lord. But this should only incite us, the more
earnestly to turn unto Christ every moment, and to draw light, and life,
and strength from him, that we may go on, conquering and to conquer.
And therefore, when the sense of our sin most abounds, the sense of his
love should much more abound.
_Q._ 21. Will our joy or our trouble increase, as we grow in grace?
_A._ Perhaps both. But without doubt our joy in the Lord will increase
as our love increases.
_Q._ 22. Is not the teaching believers to be continually poring upon
their inbred sin, the ready way to make them forget that they were
purged from their former sins?
_A._ We find by experience, it is; or to make them under-value, and
account it a little thing: whereas indeed (though there are still
greater gifts behind) this is inexpressibly great and glorious.
MINUTES OF SEVERAL
CONVERSATIONS,
Between the Reverend Messieurs JOHN and
CHARLES WESLEY, and Others.
JUNE 25, 1744, &c.
IT is desired, that all things be considered as in the immediate
presence of God:
That we may meet with a single eye, and as little children, who have
every thing to learn:
That every point which is proposed, may be examined to the foundation:
That every person may speak freely whatever is in his heart:
And that every question which may arise, should be throughly debated
and settled. Mean time let us all pray for a willingness to receive
light, to know of every doctrine, whether it be of God.
_Q._ 1. How may the time of this conference be made more eminently a
time of watching unto prayer?
_A._ 1. While we are conversing, let us have an especial care, to set
God always before us:
2. In the intermediate hours, let us visit none but the sick, and spend
all the time that remains in retirement:
3. Let us therein give ourselves to prayer for one another, and for a
blessing on this our labour.
_Q._ 2. How far does each of us agree to submit to the judgment of the
majority?
_A._ In speculative things each can only submit, so far as his judgment
shall be convinced:
In every practical point each will submit, so far as he can without
wounding his conscience.
_Q._ 3. Can a Christian submit any farther than this, to any man, or
number of men upon earth?
_A._ It is plain he cannot, either to bishop, convocation or general
council. And this is that grand principle of private judgment, on which
all the reformers proceeded; “Every man must judge for himself; because
every man must give an account of himself to God.”
* _Q._ 4. What may we reasonably expect to ♦believe God’s design in
raising up the preachers called _Methodists_?
♦ “be” replaced with “believe” per Errata
_A._ To reform the nation, particularly the church; to spread
scriptural holiness over the land.
_Q._ 5. What was the rise of _Methodism_, so called?
_A._ In 1729, two young men reading the bible, saw they could not be
saved without holiness, followed after it, and incited others so to do.
In 1737 they saw, holiness comes by faith. They saw likewise, that men
are justified before they are sanctified: but still holiness was their
point.
God then thrust them out, utterly against their will, to raise an holy
people. When Satan could no otherwise hinder this, he threw _Calvinism_
in the way; and then _Antinomianism_, which strikes directly at the
root of all holiness.
Then many of the _Methodists_ growing _rich_, became lovers of the
present world. Next they married unawakened or half-awakened _wives_,
and conversed with their relations. Hence worldly _prudence_, _maxims_,
_customs_, crept back upon them, producing more and more _conformity to
the world_.
Hence followed gross neglect of _relative duties_, especially
_education_ of children. And this is not easily cured by the preachers.
Either they have not _light_, or not _weight_ enough. But the want of
both may in some measure be supplied, by publicly reading _the sermons_
every where, particularly the fourth volume.
_Q._ 6. Is it advisable to preach in as many places as we can, without
forming any societies?
_A._ By no means: we have made the trial in various places; and that
for a considerable time. But all the seed has fallen as by the way-side:
there is scarce any fruit of it remaining.
_Q._ 7. But what particular inconveniencies do you observe, where
societies are not formed?
_A._ These among others; 1. The preachers cannot give proper
instructions and exhortations to those that are convinced of sin: 2.
They cannot watch over one another in love; nor, 3. Can the believers
bear one another’s burdens, and build up each other in faith and
holiness.
_Q._ 8. Where should we endeavour to preach most?
_A._ 1. Where we (Clergymen) are permitted to preach in a church; 2.
Where there is the greatest number of quiet and willing hearers; 3.
Where there is most fruit.
_Q._ 9. Is field-preaching then unlawful?
_A._ We conceive not. We do not know that it is contrary to any law
either of God or man.
_Q._ 10. Have we not used it too sparingly?
_A._ It seems we have: 1. Because our call is, To save that which is
lost. Now we cannot expect such to seek _us_. Therefore we should go
and seek _them_. 2. Because we are particularly called, by _going into
the highways and hedges_ (which none else will) _to compel them to come
in_. 3. Because that reason against it is not good. “The house will
hold all that come.” The house may hold all that come to the house, but
not all that _would come_ to the field.
The greatest hindrances to this you are to expect from the rich, or
cowardly, or lazy _Methodists_. But regard them not, neither stewards,
leaders, nor people. Whenever the weather will permit, go out in
God’s name into the most public places, and call all to _repent, and
believe the gospel_; every Sunday in particular: especially in the old
societies, least they settle upon their lees.
_Q._ 11. Ought we not diligently to observe, in what places God is
pleased at any time to pour out his Spirit more abundantly?
_A._ We ought, and at that time to send more labourers than usual into
that part of the harvest.
_Q._ 12. What is a sufficient call to a new place?
_A._ 1. An invitation from a serious man, fearing God, who has an house
to receive us: 2. A probability of doing more good by going thither,
than by staying longer where we are.
_Q._ 13. How often shall we permit strangers to be present, at the
meeting of the society?
_A._ Let every other meeting of the society, in every place, be
strictly private; no one stranger being admitted, on any account or
pretence whatsoever. On the other nights we may admit them with caution;
but not the same persons above twice or thrice. In order to this, see
that all in every place shew their tickets before they come in. If the
stewards and leaders are not exact and impartial herein, employ others
who have more resolution.
_Q._ 14. May a relapser into gross sin, confessing his fault, be
re-admitted into the society?
_A._ Not as a member, till after three months: but he may be permitted
to stay as a stranger.
_Q._ 15. How may the leaders of classes be made more useful?
_A._ 1. Let each of them be diligently examined concerning his method
of meeting a class.
2. Let us recommend to all the following directions;
1. Let each leader carefully inquire, how every soul in his class
prospers? Not only, how each person observes the outward rules, but
how he grows in the knowledge and love of God.
2. Let the leaders converse with all the preachers, as frequently and
as freely as possible.
3. Let every leader come into the room on _Tuesday_, as soon as the
service is ended, and then sit down, and commune with God in his heart
till the preacher comes in.
4. Let no leaders go out till the preacher goes.
5. Let every leader bring a note of every sick person in his class.
_Q._ 16. Can any thing farther be done, in order to make the meeting of
the classes lively and profitable?
_A._ 1. Let the leaders frequently meet each other’s classes.
2. Let us observe, which leaders are most useful to those under their
care. And let these meet the other classes as often as possible.
3. Frequently making new leaders.
_Q._ 17. How can we farther assist those under our care?
_A._ 1. By closely examining them at each visitation:
2. By meeting the married men and women together, on the first _Sunday_,
after the visitation; the single men and women apart, on the two
following.
3. By instructing them at their own houses.
What unspeakable need is there of this? The world say, “The Methodists
are no better than other people.” This is not true. Yet it is nearer
the truth, than we are willing to imagine.
For, 1. Personal-religion, either toward God or man, is amazingly
superficial among us.
I can but just touch on a few generals. How little faith is there among
us? How little communion with God? How little living in heaven, walking
in eternity, deadness to every creature? How much love of the word,
desire of pleasure, of ease, of praise, of getting money?
How little brotherly love? What continual judging one another? What
gossipping, evil-speaking, tale-bearing? What want of moral honesty?
To instance only in a few particulars:
What servants, journeymen, labourers, carpenters, bricklayers, do as
they would be done by? Which of them does as much work as he can? Set
him down for a knave that does not.
Who does as he would be done by, in buying and selling, particularly in
selling horses? Write him knave that does not. And the methodist-knave
is the worst of all knaves.
2. Family religion is shamefully wanting, and almost in every branch.
And the Methodists in general will be little better, till we take quite
another course with them. For what avails public _preaching alone_,
though we could preach like angels?
I heard Dr. _Lupton_ say, my father, visiting one of his parishioners,
who had never missed going to church for forty years, then lying on
his death-bed, asked him, “_Thomas_, where do you think your soul will
go?” “Soul! soul!” said _Thomas_: “Yes: do not you know what your soul
is?” “Aye surely,” said he: “Why, it is a little bone in the back, that
lives longer than the rest of the body.” So much _Thomas_ had learned
by constantly hearing sermons, yea and exceeding good sermons, for
forty years!
We must instruct them _from house to house_; till this is done, and
that in good earnest, the _Methodists_ will be little better than other
people.
Can we find a better method of doing this than Mr. _Baxter_’s? If
not, let us adopt it without delay. His whole tract, intitled, _Gildos
Salvianus_, is well worth a careful perusal. A short extract from it I
have subjoined. Speaking of this visiting from house to house, he says,
page 351.
♦“We shall find many difficulties both in ourselves and in the people
♦ Ending quote and continuation quotes are not shown in the
original text. They have been added based on transcriber’s
best interpretation of the author’s intent.
“1. In ourselves there is much dulness and laziness: so that there will
be much ado to get us to be faithful in the work.
“2. We have also a base man-pleasing temper, which makes us let men
perish, rather than lose their love, and let them go quietly to hell,
lest we should anger them.
“3. Some of us have also a foolish bashfulness. We know not how
to begin, or to speak plain. We blush to speak for Christ, or to
contradict the devil, or to save a soul.
“4. Our interest stops our mouths, and makes us unfaithful in the work
of Christ.
“5. But the greatest hindrance is, weakness of faith: so our whole
motion is weak, because the spring of it is weak.
“6. Lastly, we are unskilful in the work. How few know how to deal
with men, so as to get within them, to win upon them, and suit all
our discourse to their several conditions and tempers; to choose the
fittest subjects, and follow them with an holy mixture of seriousness,
and terror, and love, and meekness, and evangelical allurements?”
And we have as many difficulties to grapple with in our people.
1. Too many of them will be unwilling to be taught, till we conquer
their perverseness by the force of reason, and the power of love.
2. And many are so dull, that they will shun being taught, for fear of
shewing their dulness. And indeed you will find it extremely hard to
make them understand the very plainest points.
3. And it is still harder, to fix things on their heart, without which
all our labour is lost. If you have not therefore great seriousness
and fervency, what good can you expect? And when all is done, it is the
Spirit of grace, he alone, who must do the work.
4. And when we have made some impressions upon their hearts, if we look
not after them, they will soon die away.
But as great as this labour of private instruction is, it is absolutely
necessary. For after all our preaching, many of our people are almost
as ignorant as if they had never heard the gospel. I study to speak
as plain as I can; yet I frequently meet with those who have been my
hearers for many years, who know not, whether Christ be God or man; or,
that infants have any original sin. And how few are there, that know
the nature of repentance, faith and holiness? Most of them have a sort
of confidence, that Christ will justify and save them, while the world
has their hearts, and they live to themselves. And I have found by
experience, that one of these has learned more from an hour’s close
discourse, than from ten years public preaching.
And undoubtedly this private application is implied in those solemn
words of the apostle; _I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus
Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing, preach
the word, be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort,
with all long-suffering and doctrine_.
This is likewise necessary to the greater glory of God, by the fuller
success of the gospel. O brethren, if we could generally set this work
on foot in all our societies, and prosecute it skilfully and zealously,
what glory would redound to God thereby? If the common ignorance were
thus banished, and our vanity and idleness turned into the study of the
way of life, and every shop and every house busied in speaking of the
word and works of God: surely God would dwell in our habitations, and
make them his delight.
And this is necessary to the welfare of our people, many of whom
neither believe nor repent to this day. Look round about, and see how
many of them are still in apparent danger of damnation! And how can
you walk, and talk, and be merry with such people, when you know their
case? Methinks when you look them in the face, you should break forth
into tears, as the prophet did when he looked upon _Hazael_, and then
set on them with the most vehement and importunate exhortations. O then,
for God’s sake, and for the sake of poor souls, bestir yourselves, and
spare no pains that may conduce to their salvation.
What cause have we to bleed before the Lord this day, that have so long
neglected this great and good work? That have been preachers so many
years, and have done so little by personal instructions for the saving
of mens souls? If we had but set on this work sooner, how many more
might have been brought to Christ? And how much holier and happier
might we have made our societies before now? And why might we not have
done it sooner? There were many hindrances in the way: and so there are
still, and always will be. But the greatest hindrance was in ourselves,
in our dulness and littleness of faith and love. O that God would
throughly humble us, and cause us to bewail our own neglects; that we
may not think it enough to lament the sins of others, while we overlook
our own!
But it is objected, 1. This course will take up so much time, that we
shall have no time to follow our studies.
I answer, 1. Gaining knowledge is a good thing; but saving souls
is a better. 2. By this very thing you will gain the most excellent
knowledge of God and eternity. 3. But you will have abundant time for
gaining other knowledge too, if you spend all your mornings therein.
Only sleep not more than you need; talk not more than you need; and
never be idle, nor triflingly employed. But 4. If you can do but one,
either follow your studies or instruct the ignorant; let your studies
alone; I would throw by all ♦_the libraries_ in the world, rather than
be guilty of the perdition of one soul.
♦ italicize “the libraries” per Errata