the favour of God, _when his prayers and alms came up for a memorial
before God_? _i. e._ Before he believed in Christ?
_A._ It does seem that he was, in some degree. But we speak not of
those who have not heard the gospel.
_Q._ 8. But were those works of his, _splendid sins_?
_A._ No; nor were they _done without the grace of_ Christ.
* _Q._ 9. How then can we maintain, that all works done before we
have a sense of the pardoning love of God, are sin? And, as such, an
abomination to him?
_A._ The works of him who has heard the gospel, and does not believe,
are not done as God hath _willed and commanded them to be done_. And
yet we know not how to say, that they are an abomination to the Lord
in him who feareth God, and from that principle, does the best he can.
_Q._ 10. Seeing there is so much difficulty in this subject, can we
deal too tenderly with them that oppose us?
_A._ We cannot; unless we were to give up any part of the truth of God.
_Q._ 11. Is a believer _constrained_ to obey God?
_A._ At first he often is. The love of Christ constraineth him. After
this, he _may_ obey, or he may not; no constraint being laid upon him.
_Q._ 12. * Can faith be lost, but through disobedience?
_A._ It cannot. A believer first inwardly disobeys, inclines to sin
with his heart: then his intercourse with God is cut off, _i. e._ His
faith is lost. And after this, he may fall into outward sin, being now
weak, and like another man.
_Q._ 13. How can such an one recover faith?
_A._ By repenting and doing the first works, _Revelation_ ii. 5.
_Q._ 14. Whence is it that so great a majority of those who believe
fall more or less into doubt or fear?
_A._ Chiefly from their own ignorance or unfaithfulness: often from
their not watching unto prayer: perhaps sometimes from some defect, or
want of the power of God in the preaching they hear.
_Q._ 15. Is there not a defect in us? Do we preach as we did at first?
Have we not changed our doctrines?
_A._ 1. At first we preached almost wholly to unbelievers. To those
therefore we spake almost continually, of remission of sins through
the death of Christ, and the nature of faith in his blood. And so we
do still, among those who need to be taught the first elements of the
gospel of Christ:
2. But those in whom the foundation is already laid, we exhort to go
on to perfection: which we did not see so clearly at first; although
we occasionally spoke of it from the beginning.
3. Yet we now preach, and that continually, faith in Christ, as the
prophet, priest and king, at least, as clearly, as strongly, and as
fully as we did six years ago.
_Q._ 16. Do we not discourage visions and dreams too much? As if we
condemned them _toto genere_.
_A._ We do not intend to do this. We neither discourage nor encourage
them. We learn from _Acts_ ii. 19, &c. to expect something of this
kind _in the last days_. And we cannot deny, that saving faith is often
given in dreams or visions of the night: which faith we account neither
better nor worse, than if it came by any other means.
_Q._ 17. Do not some of our assistants preach too much of the wrath,
and too little of the love of God?
_A._ We fear they have leaned to that extreme; and hence some of their
hearers may have lost the joy of faith.
_Q._ 18. Need we ever preach the terrors of the Lord to those who know
they are accepted of him?
_A._ No; it is folly so to do: for love is to them the strongest of all
motives.
_Q._ 19. Do we ordinarily represent a justified state so great and
happy as it is?
_A._ Perhaps not. A believer walking in the light, is inexpressibly
great and happy.
_Q._ 20. Should we not have a care of depreciating justification, in
order to exalt the state of full sanctification?
_A._ Undoubtedly we should beware of this: for one may insensibly slide
into it.
_Q._ 21. How shall we effectually avoid it?
_A._ When we are going to speak of entire sanctification, let us first
describe the blessings of a justified state, as strongly as possible.
_Q._ 22. Does not the truth of the gospel lie very near both to
_Calvinism_ and _Antinomianism_?
_A._ Indeed it does: as it were, within a hair’s breadth. So that it
is altogether foolish and sinful, because we do not quite agree, either
with one or the other, to run from them as far as ever we can.
* _Q._ 23. Wherein may we come to the very edge of _Calvinism_?
_A._ In ascribing all good to the free grace of God: 2. In denying
all natural free will, and all power antecedent to grace; and 3. In
excluding all merit from man; even for what he has or does by the grace
of God.
_Q._ 24. Wherein may we come to the edge of _Antinomianism_?
_A._ 1. In exalting the merits and love of Christ. 2. In rejoicing
evermore.
_Q._ 25. Does faith supersede (set aside the necessity of) holiness or
good works?
_A._ In no wise. So far from it, that it implies both, as a cause does
its effects.
_About ten, we began to speak of sanctification:
with regard to which, it was inquired_;
_Q._ 1. WHEN does inward sanctification begin?
_A._ In the moment we are justified. The seed of every virtue is then
sown in the soul. From that time the believer gradually dies to sin,
and grows in grace. Yet sin remains in him; yea, the seed of all sin,
till he is sanctified throughout in spirit, soul and body.
_Q._ 2. What will become of a Heathen? A _Papist_, a church of
_England_ man? If he dies without being thus sanctified?
_A._ He cannot see the Lord. But none who seeks it sincerely, shall or
can die without it: though possibly he may not attain it, till the very
article of death?
_Q._ 3. Is it ordinarily given till a little before death?
_A._ It is not, to those that expect it no sooner, nor consequently ask
for it, at least, not in faith.
_Q._ 4. But ought we to expect it sooner?
_A._ Why not? For although we grant, 1. That the generality of
believers, whom we have hitherto known, were not so sanctified till
near death. 2. That few of those to whom St. _Paul_ wrote his epistles
were so at the time he wrote. 3. Nor he himself at the time of writing
his former epistles. Yet this does not prove, that we may not to-day.
_Q._ 5. But would not one who was thus sanctified be incapable of
worldly business?
_A._ He would be far more capable of it than ever, as going through all
without distraction.
_Q._ 6. Would he be capable of marriage?
_A._ Why should he not?
_Q._ 7. Should we not beware of bearing hard on those who think they
have attained?
_A._ We should. And the rather, because if they are faithful to the
grace they have received, they are in no danger of perishing at last.
No, not even if they remain in _luminous faith_, (as some term it)
for many months or years: perhaps till within a little time of their
spirits returning to God.
* _Q._ 8. In what manner should we preach entire sanctification?
_A._ Scarce at all to those who are not pressing forward. To those who
are, always by way of promise: always drawing, rather than driving.
_Q._ 9. How should we wait for the fulfilling of this promise?
_A._ In universal obedience: in keeping all the commandments, in
denying ourselves, and taking up our cross daily. These are the general
means which God hath ordained for our receiving his sanctifying grace.
The particular are, prayer, searching the scripture, communicating and
fasting.
Conversation the Third.
TUESDAY, _May 13, 1746_.
THE following persons being met at the New Room in _Bristol_: _John
Wesley_, _Charles Wesley_, _John Hodges_, _Jonathan Reeves_, _Thomas
Maxfield_, _Thomas Westell_, and _Thomas Willis_, It was inquired:
_Q._ 1. Can an unbeliever (whatever he be in other respects) challenge
any thing of God’s justice?
_A._ Absolutely nothing but hell. And this is a point which we cannot
too much insist on.
_Q._ 2. Do we empty men of their own ♦righteousness, as we did at
first? Do we sufficiently labour, when they begin to be convinced of
sin, to take away all they lean upon? Should we not then endeavour with
all our might to overturn their false foundations?
♦ “rightousness” replaced with “righteousness”
_A._ This was at first one of our principal points. And it ought to be
so still. For, till all other foundations are overturned, they cannot
build upon Christ?
_Q._ 3. Did we not _then_ purposely throw them into convictions?
Into strong sorrow and fear? Nay, did we not strive to make them
inconsolable? Refusing to be comforted?
_A._ We did. And so we should do still. For the stronger the conviction,
the speedier is the deliverance. And none so soon receive the peace of
God, as those who steadily refuse all other comfort.
_Q._ 4. Let us consider a particular case. Was you, _Jonathan Reeves_,
before you received the peace of God, convinced, that notwithstanding
all you did, or could do, you was in a state of damnation?
_J. R._ I was convinced of it, as fully as that I am now alive.
♦_Q._ 5. Are you sure that conviction was from God?
♦ “A.” replaced with “Q.”
_J. R._ I can have no doubt but it was.
_Q._ 6. What do you mean by a state of damnation?
_J. R._ A state, wherein if a man dies he perisheth for ever.
_Q._ 7. How did that conviction end?
_J. R._ I had first a strong hope that God _would_ deliver me: and this
brought a degree of peace. But I had not that solid peace of God, till
Christ was revealed in me.
_Q._ 8. But is not such a trust in the love of God, tho’ it be as yet
without a distinct sight of God, reconciled to me thro’ Christ Jesus,
a low degree of justifying faith?
_A._ It is an earnest of it. But this abides, for a short time only:
nor is this the proper Christian faith.
_Q._ 9. By what faith were the apostles clean, before Christ died?
_A._ By such a faith as this; by a _Jewish_ faith. For _the Holy Ghost
was not then given_.
_Q._ 10. Of whom then do you understand those words――(_Isaiah_ l. 10.)
_Who is there among you that feareth the Lord? That obeyeth the voice
of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light?_
_A._ Of a believer under the _Jewish_ dispensation: one in whose heart
God hath not yet shined, to give him the light of the glorious love of
God, in the face of Jesus Christ.
_Q._ 11. Who is a _Jew_ (inwardly)?
_A._ A _servant_ of God: one who sincerely obeys him out of fear.
Whereas a Christian (inwardly) is a _child_ of God; one who sincerely
obeys him out of love. But was not you sincere before Christ was
revealed in you?
_J. R._ It seemed to me that I was in some measure.
_Q._ 12. What is sincerity?
_A._ Willingness to know and do the whole will of God. The lowest
species thereof seems to be _faithfulness in that which is little_.
* _Q._ 13. Has God any regard to man’s sincerity?
_A._ So far, that no man in any state can possibly please God without
it: neither indeed in any moment wherein he is not sincere.
_Q._ 14. But can it be conceived that God has any regard to the
sincerity of an unbeliever?
_A._ Yes, so much, that if he persevere therein, God will infallibly
give him faith.
_Q._ 15. What regard may we conceive him to have, to the sincerity of
a believer?
_A._ So much, that in every sincere believer he fulfils all the great
and precious promises.
_Q._ 16. Whom do you term a _sincere believer_?
_A._ One that walks in the light, as God is in the light.
_Q._ ♦17. Is sincerity the same with a _single eye_?
♦ “18” replaced with “17”
_A._ Not altogether. The latter refers to our intention: the former to
our will or desires.
_Q._ 18. Is it not all in all?
_A._ All will follow persevering sincerity. God gives every thing with
it; nothing without it.
* _Q._ 19. Are not then sincerity and faith equivalent terms?
_A._ By no means. It is at least as nearly related to works as it
is to faith. For example; who is sincere before he believes? He that
then does all he can: he that, according to the power he has received,
brings forth _fruits meet for repentance_. Who is sincere after he
believes: he that, from a sense of God’s love, is zealous of all good
works.
_Q._ 20. Is not sincerity what St. _Paul_ terms a willing mind? ἡ
προθυμία? _2 Corinthians_ viii. 12.
_A._ Yes: if that word be taken in a general sense. For it is a
constant disposition to use all the grace given.
* _Q._ 21. But do we not then set sincerity on a level with faith?
_A._ No. For we allow a man may be sincere, and not be justified, as
he may be penitent, and not be justified: (not as yet) but he cannot
have faith, and not be justified. The very moment he believes he is
justified.
_Q._ 22. But do we not give up faith, and put sincerity in its place,
as the condition of our acceptance with God?
_A._ We believe it is one condition of our acceptance, as repentance
likewise is. And we believe it a condition of our continuing in a state
of acceptance. Yet we do not put it in the place of faith. It is by
faith the merits of Christ are applied to my soul. But if I am not
sincere, they are not applied.
_Q._ 23. Is not this that _going about to establish your own
righteousness_, whereof St. _Paul_ speaks, _Romans_ x. 4?
_A._ St. _Paul_ there manifestly speaks of unbelievers, who sought to
be accepted for the sake of their own righteousness. We do not seek to
be accepted for the sake of our sincerity; but through the merits of
Christ alone. Indeed, so long as any man believes, he cannot go about
(in St. _Paul_’s sense) to _establish his own righteousness_.
* _Q._ 24. But do you consider, that we are under the covenant of
grace? And that the covenant of works is now abolished?
_A._ All mankind were under the covenant of grace, from the very hour
that the original promise was made. If by the covenant of works you
mean, that of unsinning obedience made with _Adam_ before the fall:
no man, but _Adam_, was ever under the covenant: for it was abolished
before _Cain_ was born. Yet it is not so abolished, but that it will
stand, in a measure, even to the end of the world, _i. e._ If we _do
this_, we shall live; if not, we shall die eternally: if we do well, we
shall live with God in glory: if evil, we shall die the second death.
For every man shall be judged in that day, and rewarded _according to
his works_.
_Q._ 25. What means then, _To him that believeth his faith is counted
for righteousness_?
_A._ That God forgives him that is unrighteous as soon as he believes,
accepting his faith instead of perfect righteousness. But then observe,
universal righteousness follows, though it did not precede faith.
_Q._ 26. But is faith thus _counted to us for righteousness_, at
whatsoever time we believe?
_A._ Yes. In whatsoever moment we believe, all our past sins vanish
away. They are as though they had never been, and we stand clear in
the sight of God.
TUESDAY, _Ten o’Clock_.
MR. _Taylor_ of _Quinton_, and _T. Glascot_, being added, it was
inquired,
_Q._ 1. Are not the assurance of faith, the inspiration of the Holy
Ghost, and the revelation of Christ in us, terms nearly of the same
import?
_A._ He that denies one of them, must deny all; they are so closely
connected together.
_Q._ 2. Are they ordinarily, where the pure gospel is preached,
essential to our acceptance?
_A._ Undoubtedly they are; and as such, to be insisted on, in the
strongest terms.
* _Q._ 3. Is not the whole dispute of salvation by faith or by works,
a mere _strife of words_?
_A._ In asserting salvation by faith, we mean this; 1. That pardon,
(salvation begun) is received by faith, producing works. 2. That
holiness (salvation continued) is faith working by love: 3. That heaven
(salvation finished) is the reward of this faith.
If you who assert salvation by works, or by faith and works, mean the
same thing (understanding by faith, the revelation of Christ in us, by
salvation, pardon, holiness, glory) we will not strive with you at all.
If you do not, this is not a _strife of words_: but the very vitals,
the essence of Christianity is the thing in question.
_Q._ 4. Wherein does occur doctrine now differ from that we preached
when at _Oxford_?
_A._ Chiefly in these two points: 1. We then knew nothing of that
righteousness of faith, in justification; nor 2. Of the nature of faith
itself, as implying consciousness of pardon.
_Q._ 5. May not some degree of the love of God, go before a distinct
sense of justification?
_A._ We believe it may.
_Q._ 6. Can any degree of sanctification or holiness?
_A._ Many degrees of outward holiness may: yea, and some degree
of meekness, and several other tempers which would be branches
of Christian holiness, but that they do not spring from Christian
principles. For the abiding love of God cannot spring, but from faith
in a pardoning God. And no true Christian holiness can exist, without
that love of God for its foundation.
_Q._ 7. Is every man, as soon as he believes, a new creature,
sanctified, pure in heart? Has he then a new heart? Does Christ dwell
therein? And is he a temple of the Holy Ghost?
_A._ All these things may be affirmed of every believer, in a true
sense. Let us not therefore contradict those who maintain it. Why
should we contend about words?
Conversation the Fourth.
TUESDAY, _June 16, 1747_.
THE following persons being met at the Foundery:
_John Wesley_, _Charles Wesley_, and _Charles Manning_, vicar of
_Hayes_: _Richard Thomas Bateman_, rector of St. _Bartholomew_’s the
Great, _Henry Piers_, _Howell Harris_, and _Thomas Hardwick_, It was
inquired,
_Q._ 1. Is justifying faith, a divine assurance, that Christ loved _me_
and gave himself for _me_?
_A._ We believe it is.
_Q._ 2. What is the judgment of most of the serious dissenters
concerning this?
_A._ They generally allow, that many believers have such an assurance:
And
That it is to be desired and prayed for by all:
But then they affirm,
That this is the highest species, or degree of faith:
That it is not the common privilege of believers: consequently, they
deny that this is justifying faith, or necessarily implied therein.
_Q._ 3. And are there not strong reasons for their opinion? For
instance: If the true believers of old had not this assurance, then
it is not necessarily implied in justifying faith:
But the true believers of old had not this assurance.
_A._ _David_, and many more of the believers of old, undeniably had
this assurance. But even if the _Jews_ had it not, it would not follow,
that this is not implied in _Christian_ faith.
_Q._ 4. But do you not know, that the apostles themselves had it not,
till after the day of _Pentecost_?
_A._ The apostles themselves had not the proper Christian faith, till
after the day of _Pentecost_.
_Q._ 5. But were not those Christian believers, in the proper sense, to
whom St. _John_ wrote his first epistle? Yet to these he says, chapter
v. verse 13. _These things have I written unto you that believe on the
name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and
that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God._
_A._ This does not prove, that they did not know they had eternal
life, any more than that they did not believe. His plain meaning is,
“I have written unto you, that you may be the more established in the
faith.” Therefore it does not follow from hence, that they had not this
assurance: but only, that there are degrees therein.
_Q._ 6. But were not the _Thessalonians_ true believers? Yet they had
not this assurance: they had only a _good hope_. _2 Thessalonians_ ii.
16.
_A._ The text you refer to, runs thus: _Now our_ Lord Jesus Christ
_himself, and_ God, _even our Father, which hath loved us, and given
us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace: comfort your
hearts and establish you, in every good word and work_. This _good
hope_ does not exclude, but necessarily implies a strong assurance of
the love of God.
_Q._ 7. But does not St. _Paul_ say even of himself, _1 Corinthians_
iv. 4. _I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified_?
_A._ He does not say of himself here, that he was not justified: or,
that he did not know it: but only, that though he had a conscience void
of offence, yet this did not justify him before God. And must not every
believer say the same? This therefore is wide of the point.
_Q._ 8. But does he not disclaim any such assurance in those words,
_1 Corinthians_ i. 3. _I was with you in weakness and in fear, and in
much trembling_.
_A._ By no means. For these words do not imply any fear either of death
or hell. They express only a deep sense of his utter insufficiency for
the great work wherein he was engaged.
_Q._ 9. However, does he not exclude Christians in general from such an
assurance, when he bids them _work out_ their _salvation with fear and
trembling_? _Philippians_ ii. 12.
_A._ No more than from love; which is always joined with filial fear
and reverential trembling.
And the same answer is applicable to all those texts which exhort a
believer to fear.
_Q._ 10. But does not matter of fact prove, that justifying faith does
not necessarily imply assurance? For can you believe that such a person
as _J. A._ or _E. V._ who have so much integrity, zeal, and fear of God,
and walk so unblameably in all things, is void of justifying faith? Can
you suppose such as these to be under the wrath and under the curse of
God? Especially if you add to this, that they are continually longing,
striving, praying for the assurance which they have not?
_A._ This contains the very strength of the cause: and inclines us to
think, that some of these may be exempt cases. But however that be, we
answer:
1. It is dangerous to ground a general doctrine on a few particular
experiments.
2. Men may have many good tempers, and a blameless life (speaking in a
loose sense), by nature and habit, with preventing grace; and yet not
have faith and the love of God.
3. It is scarce possible for us to know all the circumstances relating
to such persons, so as to judge certainly concerning them.
4. But this we know, If Christ is not revealed in them, they are not
yet Christian believers.
_Q._ 11. But what will become of them then, suppose they die in this
state?
_A._ That is a supposition not to be made.
They cannot die in this state. They must go backward or forward. If
they continue to seek, they will surely find righteousness, and peace,
and joy in the Holy Ghost. We are confirmed in this belief by the many
instances we have seen, of such as these finding peace at the last hour.
And it is not impossible, but others may then be made partakers of like
precious faith, and yet go hence without giving any outward proof of
the change which God hath wrought.
Conversation the Fifth.
WEDNESDAY, 17.
_Q._ 1. HOW much is allowed by our brethren who differ from us, with
regard to entire sanctification?
_A._ They grant, 1. That every one must be entirely sanctified, in the
article of death:
2. That till then, a believer daily grows in grace, comes nearer and
nearer to perfection:
3. That we ought to be continually pressing after this and to exhort
all others so to do.
_Q._ 2. What do we allow them?
_A._ We grant, 1. That many of those who have died in the faith, yea,
the greater part of those we have known, were not sanctified throughout,
not made perfect in love, till a little before death:
2. That the term, “sanctified,” is continually applied by St. _Paul_,
to all that were justified, were true believers:
3. That by this term alone, he rarely (if ever) means, saved from all
sin:
4. That consequently, it is not proper to use it in this sense, without
adding the word “wholly, entirely,” or the like:
5. That the inspired writers almost continually speak of or to those
who are justified; but very rarely, either of or to those, who were
wholly sanctified:
6. That consequently, it behoves us to speak in public almost
continually of the state of justification: but more rarely, in full
and explicit terms, concerning entire sanctification.
_Q._ 3. What then is the point wherein we divide?
_A._ It is this: Whether we should expect to be saved from all sin,
before the article of death?
_Q._ 4. Is there any clear scripture _promise_ of this? That God will
save us from _all_ sin?
_A._ There is. _Psalm_ cxxx. 8. _He shall redeem Israel from_ all _his
sins_.