“This Party member should have a chance to buy the business for
as cheap a price as possible. In such a case, the State will not
receive the full price, but only the amount the Jew received.”
Is that correct?
GÖRING: Just a moment, please, I believe you skipped something.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, we did. If you want to put it in, you may read
it.
GÖRING: No, I want to put it quite briefly, so that it will not take too
long. I said what you have already said, that all things being equal,
the Party member is to be given preference, the first on the list being
the member who suffered prejudice by having his business license
cancelled because he was a Party member. Then follows the paragraph
which you read and which is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you then speak at considerable length of the
method by which you intended to Aryanize Jewish businesses, is that
right?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then you take up the Aryanization of Jewish
factories.
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You speak of the smaller factories first.
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Have you found the place where you speak of the
factories?
GÖRING: Yes, I have found it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I quote.
“Now the factories. With regard to the smaller and medium-sized
ones, two things will have to be made clear: First, which are
the factories for which I have no use, and which can be shut
down? Could they not be put to another use? If not, then these
factories are to be pulled down. Second, if the factory should
be needed, it will be turned over to Aryans in the same manner
as the stores.”
That is correct, isn’t it?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you care to say any more on that subject?
GÖRING: No, those are the basic elements for the laws.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention to the second paragraph,
starting, “Take now the larger factories.” Do you find that?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Dealing with the larger factories, do you not say
the solution is very simple, that the factory can be compensated in the
same manner as the stores, that is, at a rate which we shall determine,
and the Trustee shall take over the Jew’s interest, as well as his
shares, and in turn sell or transfer them to the State as he thinks fit.
GÖRING: That means any one who has any interest in the factories will
receive compensation, according to the scale laid down by us.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the reparation will be turned over to the State
Trustee, will it not?
GÖRING: Yes, to the State Trustee. The matter was simply this: The Jew
relinquished his ownership and received bonds. That was to be settled by
the Trustee through 3 percent bonds.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we will pass on to where you deal with the
foreign Jews, do you recall that?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At that point a representative of the Foreign
Office claimed the right to participate on behalf of the Foreign
Minister, is that right?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, now, we will pass on to the point of the
conversation between yourself and Heydrich.
GÖRING: Just a moment, please. Part of the minutes are missing. All
right. I have found the place where Heydrich is mentioned for the first
time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You inquired how many synagogues were actually
burned, and Heydrich replied, “Altogether there were 101 synagogues
destroyed by fire, 76 synagogues demolished, and 7,500 stores destroyed
in the Reich.” Have I quoted that correctly?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, then Dr. Goebbels interposed, “I am of the
opinion that this is our chance to dissolve the synagogues.” And then
you have a discussion about the dissolving of the synagogues, have you
not?
GÖRING: By Dr. Goebbels, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then, Dr. Goebbels raised the question of Jews
traveling in railway trains?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let me know if I quote correctly the dialogue
between you and Dr. Goebbels on that subject. Dr. Goebbels said:
“Furthermore, I advocate that Jews be banned from all public
places where they might cause provocation. It is still possible
for a Jew to share a sleeper with a German. Therefore, the Reich
Ministry of Transport must issue a decree ordering that there
shall be separate compartments for Jews. If this compartment is
full, then the Jews cannot claim a seat. They can only be given
separate compartments after all Germans have secured seats. They
must not mix with the Germans; if there is no more room, they
will have to stand in the corridor.”
Is that right?
GÖRING: Yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “Göring: I think it would be more sensible
to give them separate compartments.
“Goebbels: Not if the train is overcrowded.
“Göring: Just a moment. There will be only one Jewish coach. If
that is filled up the other Jews will have to stay at home.
“Goebbels: But suppose there are not many Jews going, let us
say, on the long-distance express train to Munich. Suppose there
are two Jews on the train, and the other compartments are
overcrowded; these two Jews would then have a compartment to
themselves. Therefore, the decree must state, Jews may claim a
seat only after all Germans have secured a seat.
“Göring: I would give the Jews one coach or one compartment, and
should a case such as you mention arise, and the train be
overcrowded, believe me, we will not need a law. He will be
kicked out all right, and will have to sit alone in the toilet
all the way.”
Is that correct?
GÖRING: Yes. I was getting irritated when Goebbels came with his small
details when important laws were being discussed. I refused to do
anything. I issued no decrees or laws in this connection. Of course,
today, it is very pleasant for the Prosecution to bring it up, but I
wish to state that it was a very lively meeting at which Goebbels made
demands which were quite outside the economic sphere, and I used these
expressions to give vent to my feelings.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then Goebbels, who felt very strongly about these
things, said that Jews should stand in the corridor, and you said that
they would have to sit in the toilet. That is the way you said it?
GÖRING: No, it is not. I said that they should have a special
compartment; and when Goebbels still was not satisfied, and harped on
it, I finally told him, “I do not need a law. He can either sit in the
toilet or leave the train.” These are utterances made in this connection
which, however, have nothing to do with the world-wide importance of the
great conflict.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let us go down to where Goebbels brings up the
subject of the German forests.
GÖRING: Just a moment. Yes. It starts where Goebbels asked for a decree
which would prevent Jews from going to German holiday resorts. To which
I replied “Give them their own.” And then he suggested that it would
have to be considered whether we should give them their own resorts, or
place some German bathing places at their disposal, but not the best
ones so that people might say: “You allow the Jews to get fit by using
our bathing resorts.” The question must also be considered whether it
was necessary to forbid the Jews to go into the German forests. Herds of
Jews are today running around in Grunewald; that is a constant
provocation—and so on. Then when he broke in again, I replied very
sharply, “It would be better to put a certain part of the forest at the
disposal of the Jews,” as he wanted them out of the whole of the
forests. Then I made the remark which seems to be of so much interest.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let us have that remark. Is it not correct, you did
state:
“We will give the Jews a certain part of the forest, and Alpers
will see to it that the various animals, which are damnably like
the Jews—the Elk too has a hooked nose—go into the Jewish
enclosure and settle down among them.”
Is that what you said?
GÖRING: Yes, I said it, but it should be linked up with the whole
atmosphere of the meeting. Goebbels comes back on it again in the next
sentence and says he considers my attitude provoking. I too can say I
was provoked by his insistence on unimportant things, when such
far-reaching and decisive matters were being discussed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you come to the point where you ask Mr.
Hilgard from the insurance company to come in. Can you find that?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you made a statement to Mr. Hilgard when he
came in.
“The position, is as follows: Because of the justified anger of
the people against the Jews, the Reich has suffered a certain
amount of damage. Windows have been broken, goods damaged, and
people hurt; synagogues have been burned, and so forth, I
suppose many of the Jews are also insured against damage
committed by public disorder?
“Hilgard: Yes.
“Göring: If that is so, the following situation arises. The
people in their justified anger meant to harm the Jews, but it
is the German insurance companies which have to compensate the
Jews for the damage. The thing is simple enough. I have only to
issue a decree to the effect that damage resulting from these
riots shall not have to be paid by the insurance companies.”
Is that what you said?
GÖRING: Yes, I said all that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Hilgard then outlined three kinds of insurance. He
pointed out that at least as far as plate glass insurance was concerned,
the majority of the sufferers were Aryans who owned buildings and that,
as a rule, the Jews only rented them. Is that right?
GÖRING: Yes, those are the details of the discussion.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Hilgard said:
“May I draw your attention to the following facts: Plate glass
is not manufactured by the Bohemian glass industry, but is
entirely in the hands of the Belgian glass industry. In my
estimation the damage amounts to 6 millions; that is to say,
under the insurance policies, we shall have to pay the owners,
who for the most part are Aryans, about 6 millions compensation
for the glass.”
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, before you pass from that page, in
the third paragraph, just for the sake of accuracy, it appears that the
name “Mr. Hilgard” is wrongly placed, does it not, because he seems both
to put the question and to answer it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I think that is . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Probably the Defendant Göring put the question. It is the
third paragraph on my page.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I take the minutes to read that when Hilgard
appeared, Göring addressed him as “Mr. Hilgard.”
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But it is correct, as Your Honor suggests.
GÖRING: I wish to point out what was said before concerning the broken
glass. Goebbels said: “The Jews must pay for the damage,” and I said,
“It is no use, we have no raw material, it is all foreign glass. That
will require foreign currency. It is like asking for the moon.” Then
Hilgard comes with the discussions just mentioned.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, and Hilgard pointed out that:
“Incidentally the amount of damage equals about half a year’s
production of the whole of the Belgian glass industry. We
believe that the manufacturers will take 6 months to deliver the
glass.”
Do you recall that?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, passing down, you come to a point at which
Hilgard tells you about a store on Unter den Linden which was attacked.
Can you find that?
GÖRING: He said, “The biggest incident is the case of Margraf, Unter den
Linden.” Isn’t that so?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is right.
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “The damage reported to us amounts to 1,700,000
because the store was completely ransacked.” Is that right?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “Göring: Daluege and Heydrich, you must get me
these jewels by large-scale raids.” Is that the order you gave?
GÖRING: Yes, of course, so that the stolen goods should be brought back.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Brought back to you, not to the Jews?
GÖRING: Not to me personally, I beg your pardon, that is quite clear.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Brought back to the State—you did not intend to
return them to the Jews?
GÖRING: It does not say that here. The main thing is, that they should
be brought back.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “We are trying to get the loot back,” as Heydrich
put it, is that right? And you added, “And the jewels?”
GÖRING: If a large jewelry shop is plundered, something must be done
about it because with these valuables a great deal of trouble could be
caused. Therefore, I ordered raids to be carried out to have these
things, as well as other stolen goods, brought back. When a business was
Aryanized, its stock was also transferred to the new owner. The main
point, however, was that action should be taken against those who had
stolen and plundered, and in fact 150 had already been arrested.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Heydrich went on to report on the method of
these raids after you reminded him to bring back, to get the jewels.
“It is difficult to say. Some of the articles were thrown into
the street and picked up. The same happened with the furriers.
For example, in the Friedrichstrasse in the district of Police
Station C. There the crowd naturally rushed to pick up mink and
skunk furs, _et cetera_. It will be very difficult to recover
them. Even children filled their pockets just for the fun of the
thing. It is suggested that the Hitler Youth should not be
employed on such actions without the Party’s consent. Such
things are very easily destroyed.”
GÖRING: Yes, so it says.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Daluege then suggests:
“The Party should issue an order to the effect that the police
must immediately be notified if the neighbor’s wife—everybody
knows his neighbor very well—has a fur coat remodeled or
somebody is seen wearing a new ring or bracelet. We should like
the Party to assist in this matter.”
Correct?
GÖRING: This is absolutely correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Hilgard objected to your plan of releasing the
insurance companies from paying the claims, did he not?
GÖRING: Yes, this is also correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he gave the reasons:
“Hilgard: If I may give the reasons for my objection, the point
is that we do a large international business. Our business has a
sound international basis, and in the interests of the foreign
exchange position in Germany we cannot allow the confidence in
the German insurance business to be shaken. If we were now to
refuse to fulfill commitments entered into by legal contracts it
would be a blot on the escutcheon of the German insurance
business.
“Göring: But it would not be if I were to issue a decree or a
law.”
Am I quoting correct?
GÖRING: Yes, and in Hilgard’s reply—and that is the reply I wanted to
come to—he pointed out that the insurance companies could not get out
of paying claims unless a law provided for it. If the sovereign state
passes a law to the effect that the insurance sums must be forfeited to
the state, then the insurance companies are no longer under any
obligation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I suggest to you that that is not correct, but
that even though you proposed to issue a decree absolving the German
insurance companies, the companies insisted on meeting their
obligations; and then Heydrich interposed and said: “By all means, let
them pay the claims and when payment is made it will be confiscated.
Thus we will save our face.”
Correct?
GÖRING: Heydrich said that, but I issued a law.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not then say:
“One moment. They will have to pay in any case because Germans
suffered damage. There will, however, be a law forbidding them
to make direct payments to Jews. They will also have to make
payment for damage suffered by Jews, not to the Jews, but to the
Minister of Finance.
“Hilgard: Aha.”
GÖRING: I have just said so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You accepted Heydrich’s suggestion, which was quite
contrary to the one you made?
GÖRING: No, I did not accept Heydrich’s suggestion, but I issued a law
to the effect that insurance money due to Jews must be paid to the
Minister of Finance, as I did not agree with Heydrich that insurance
money should be paid out and then surreptitiously confiscated. I went
about it in a legal way and was not afraid to make the necessary law and
to take the responsibility for the claims to be paid to the State, that
is, to the Minister of Finance.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, the Tribunal will judge for itself, we have
the evidence.
Now, Hilgard, representing the insurance companies, then raised the
question that the amount of glass insurance premium was very important,
that glass insurance was the companies’ greatest asset, “but the amount
of the damage now caused is twice as high as in an ordinary year,” and
he pointed out that the whole of the profits of the German insurance
companies would be absorbed, did he not?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And also the question of the number of the stores
destroyed—Heydrich reported 7,500, is that right?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention to the following
conversation.
Daluege . . .
Who, by the way, was he?
GÖRING: Daluege was the leader of the Schutzpolizei.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “One question has still to be discussed.
Most of the goods in the stores were not the property of the
shopkeepers but were on consignment from other firms which had
supplied them. Now the unpaid invoices are being sent in by
these firms, which are certainly not all Jewish, but Aryan, in
respect to these goods on consignment.
“Hilgard: We will have to pay for them too.
“Göring: I wish you had killed 200 Jews instead of destroying
such valuables.
“Heydrich: There were 35 killed.”
Do I read that correctly?
GÖRING: Yes, this was said in a moment of bad temper and excitement.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Spontaneously sincere, wasn’t it?
GÖRING: As I said, it was not meant seriously. It was the expression of
spontaneous excitement caused by the events, and by the destruction of
valuables, and by the difficulties which arose. Of course, if you are
going to bring up every word I said in the course of 25 years in these
circles, I myself could give you instances of even stronger remarks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then Funk interposed to discuss the foreign
exchange point, did he not? He contributed to the discussion, did he
not, for a while? I will not bother to go into it.
GÖRING: Yes, but not everything is put down in the minutes, which are
not clear on this point. I regret the minutes are incomplete. That is
strange.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I join you in that.
Hilgard returned again to the subject of the profit of the insurance
companies, did he not?
GÖRING: Yes, of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you made this statement, did you not?
“The Jew must report the damage. He will get the insurance
money, but it will be confiscated. The final result will be that
the insurance companies will gain something, as not all damages
will have to be made good. Hilgard, you can consider yourself
damned lucky.
“Hilgard: I have no reason for that. The fact that we shall not
have to pay for all the damage is called a profit.
“Göring: Just a moment. If you are legally bound to pay 5
millions and all of a sudden an angel, in my somewhat corpulent
shape, appears before you and tells you you may keep 1 million,
hang it, is this not a profit? I should like to go 50-50 with
you or whatever you call it. I only have to look at you, your
whole body exudes satisfaction. You are getting a big rake-off.”
Am I quoting correctly?
GÖRING: Yes, of course, I said all that.
THE PRESIDENT: We will break off now.
[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]
_Afternoon Session_
DR. ALFRED SEIDL (Counsel for Defendant Hess): Mr. President, the
Defendant Hess has expressed the wish to be excused from attending this
afternoon’s session, because he wants to prepare himself for his
examination as a witness, which will take place in the next few days. I
do not believe that this will cause a delay in the proceedings, and I
should like to ask the Tribunal to grant this request.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, on the same conditions as before, namely, that
you arrange with somebody to protect your interests while you are
absent.
DR. SEIDL: I will not be absent myself, only Hess.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: [_To the witness._] I would like to call your
attention again to the Exhibit USA-261, Document 1816-PS. Would you turn
to Part 5, where you were speaking of Margraf’s jewels that disappeared?
GÖRING: That is going back to something already dealt with.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, for a time, to Part 5. I call your attention
to your statement as follows:
“Now we come to the damage sustained by the Jew, the
disappearance of the jewels at Margraf’s, _et cetera_. Well,
they are gone and he will not get them refunded. He is the one
who has to suffer the damage. Any of the jewels which may be
returned by the police will belong to the State.”
Do you find that?
GÖRING: Yes, that is correct, but on the basis of the laws he was
compensated for that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, there was a representative of Austria present
at this meeting, was there not?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I ask you to turn to his statement in reference
to conditions in Austria, a page or so farther on.
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I ask you whether he did not report to your
meeting as follows:
“Your Excellency, in this matter, we have already a very
complete plan for Austria. There are 12,000 Jewish workshops and
5,000 Jewish retail shops in Vienna. Even before the National
Socialist revolution we already had, concerning these 17,000
shops, a definite plan for dealing with all tradesmen. Of the
12,000 workshops about 10,000 were to be closed definitely
. . .”
GÖRING: The interpreter did not follow . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you find it?
GÖRING: I have found it, but the interpreter has not.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “Regarding this total of 17,000 stores, of
the shops of the 12,000 artisans, about 10,000 were to be closed
definitely and 2,000 were to be kept open. Four thousand of the
5,000 retail stores were to be closed and 1,000 kept open, that
is, were to be Aryanized. According to this plan, 3,000 to 3,500
of the total of 17,000 stores would be kept open, all others
closed. This was decided following investigations in every
single branch and according to local needs, in agreement with
all competent authorities, and is ready for publication as soon
as we shall receive the law which we requested in September.
This law shall empower us to withdraw licenses from artisans
quite independently of the Jewish question. That would be quite
a short law.
“Göring: I shall have this decree issued today.”
GÖRING: Of course. This concerns a law for the curtailment of the heavy
retail trade which, even apart from the Jewish question, would have
reduced the number of retailers. That can be seen from the minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Very well, let us go on a little further. Do you
mean to inform the Tribunal that this did not apply to Jewish shops;
that it had no connection with the Jewish question?
GÖRING: I have said that independently of the Jewish question, in view
of the overfilled retail trade, a limitation of the number of tradesmen
would have followed, and that it can be seen from the following
statement by Mr. Fischböck, which you have read, that I asked for a law
which would authorize us to withdraw licenses, without any connection
with the Jewish question. That would be a brief law. Whereupon I
answered, “I will issue the decree today.”
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, if you will . . .
GÖRING: Naturally, above all, Jewish stores were to be eliminated, as I
said in the beginning.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Please go on down two paragraphs to where this was
reported:
“But I do not believe that there will be 100 stores, probably
fewer; and thus, by the end of the year, we would have
liquidated all the recognized Jewish-owned businesses.
“Göring: That would be excellent.
“Fischböck: . . .”
GÖRING: Yes, yes, that was the import of that meeting.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “Fischböck: Out of 17,000 stores 12,000 or
14,000 would be shut down and the remainder Aryanized or handed
over to the Trustee’s office, which belongs to the State.
“Göring: I have to say that this proposal is grand. This way the
whole affair in Vienna, one of the Jewish capitals so to speak,
would be wound up by Christmas or by the end of the year.
“Funk: We can do the same thing here. I have prepared a law
elaborating that. Effective 1 January 1939, Jews shall be
prohibited from operating retail stores and wholesale
establishments, as well as independent workshops. They shall be
further prohibited from keeping employees, or offering any
ready-made products on the market; from advertising or receiving
orders. Whenever a Jewish shop is operated the police shall shut
it down.
“From 1 January 1939 a Jew can no longer be head of an
enterprise, as stipulated in the law for the organization of
national labor of 20 January 1934. If a Jew has a leading
position in an establishment without being the head of the
enterprise, his contract may be declared void within 6 weeks by
the head of the enterprise. With the expiration of this period
all claims of the employee, including all claims to maintenance,
become invalid. That is always very disagreeable and a great
danger. A Jew cannot be a member of a corporation. Jewish
members of corporations will have to be retired by 31 December
1938. A special authorization is unnecessary. The competent
ministers of the Reich are being authorized to issue the
provision necessary for execution of this law.
“Göring: I believe we can agree with this law.”
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now I ask you to pass a considerable dialogue
relating to the Vienna situation, and I call your attention to the point
at which Funk inquires of you:
“Why should the Jew not be allowed to keep bonds?
“Göring: Because in that way he would actually be given a
share.”
GÖRING: Yes, that was the purpose, to get him out of the enterprise. If
he kept the bonds, on the basis of his rights as stockholder he still
had an interest in the enterprise, and on the basis of ownership of
stocks his will would still carry weight in the enterprise.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You turned Funk’s suggestion down that the Jews be
allowed to keep bonds?
GÖRING: Yes. I replaced the bonds with securities.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we will pass several more pages of debate,
unless there is something you want to call attention to; and I come to
the point where Heydrich is stating his position. I call your attention
to this dialogue:
“Heydrich: At least 45,000 Jews were made to leave the country
by legal measures.
“Göring: . . .”
GÖRING: One moment, please. I find it now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “At least 45,000 Jews were made to leave
the country by legal measures.
“Göring: How was this possible?”
And then Heydrich tells you that: “. . . through the Jewish
societies we extracted a certain amount of money from the rich
Jews who wanted to emigrate. By paying this amount and an
additional sum in foreign currency they made it possible for a
number of poor Jews to leave. The problem was not to make the
rich Jews leave but to get rid of the Jewish mob.”
Is that correct?
GÖRING: One moment. I do not find it here yet, but generally that is
correct, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Pass on a little further. Heydrich is making
suggestions and says:
“As for the isolating, I would like to make a few proposals
regarding police measures, which are important also because of
their psychological effect on public opinion.
“For example, anybody who is Jewish according to the Nuremberg
Laws will have to wear a certain badge. That is a possibility
which will facilitate many other things. I see no danger of
excesses, and it will make our relationship with the foreign
Jews easier.
“Göring: A uniform?
“Heydrich: A badge. In this way we could put an end to foreign
Jews being molested who do not look different from ours.
“Göring: But my dear Heydrich, you will not be able to avoid the
creation of ghettos on a very large scale in all the cities.
They will have to be created.”
Is that what you said?
GÖRING: I said that. At that time the problem was also to get the Jews
together in certain parts of the cities and in certain streets, because
on the basis of the tenancy regulations there was no other possibility,
and if the wearing of badges was to be made obligatory, each individual
Jew could have been protected.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, passing further in the discussion, I call your
attention to this warning from Heydrich about, the measures which have
been discussed:
“Göring: Once we have a ghetto, we could determine what stores
ought to be there and we would be able to say, ‘You, Jew so and
so, together with so and so, shall take care of the delivery of
goods,’ then a German wholesale firm will be ordered to deliver
the goods for this Jewish store. The store would then not be a
retail shop but a co-operative store, a co-operative society for
Jews.
“Heydrich: All these measures will eventually lead to the
institution of a ghetto. I must say: nowadays one should not
want to set up a ghetto, but these measures, if carried through
as outlined here, will automatically drive the Jews into a
ghetto.”
Did Heydrich give that warning?
GÖRING: Here it says so, yes, but it can be seen from the following
discussion that I said: “Now comes that which Goebbels mentioned before,
compulsory renting. Now the Jewish tenants will come together.” It was a
question of the Jewish tenants drawing together in order to avoid the
disagreeable results which arose from reciprocal subletting.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have omitted that Funk also remarked at this
point that “Jews will have to stand together. What are 3 million? Every
one will have to stand up for the next fellow. Alone he will starve.”
Do you find that?
GÖRING: Yes. But in another part of these minutes it is stated very
clearly: “One cannot let the Jews starve, and therefore the necessary
measures must be taken.”
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Toward the close of that meeting you said the
following, didn’t you?
“I demand that German Jewry as a whole shall, as a punishment
for the abominable crimes, _et cetera_, make a contribution of
1,000,000,000 marks. That will work. The pigs will not commit a
second murder so quickly. Incidentally, I would like to say
again that I would not like to be a Jew in Germany.”
GÖRING: That was correct, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you joking about that too?
GÖRING: I have told you exactly what led to the fine of 1,000,000,000.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You pointed out that the chauffeurs of Gauleiter
must be prevented from enriching themselves through the Aryanization of
Jewish property, right?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We will now take up the subject of art.
I call your attention to Document 141-PS, Exhibit Number USA-308. That
is the decree establishing priorities on the claim for Jewish art
property. Do you recall that?
GÖRING: That has been mentioned several times, and I have recently
spoken about it in detail.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The order was issued as here stated, was it not?
GÖRING: Yes, certainly; I emphasized that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In Paragraph 5 reference is made to art objects
that are suitable to be given to French museums, and which were to be
sold by auction. The profit from this auction was to be given to the
French State for the benefit of war widows and children. You say that
this was never done?
GÖRING: I did not say that this never happened. That was my intention in
that decree.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I am asking you if it ever has been done.
GÖRING: As far as Paragraph 5 is concerned, I cannot say. I can only
refer to the payments mentioned in Paragraph 2—the things that I
pointed out:—which I had had effected after an estimate, and I said the
other day that this amount was kept in readiness and that I repeatedly
asked into which account it should be paid. And among the objects
destined to go into the collection which I was to make, I had every
single item valued.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where was this amount kept?
GÖRING: In my bank, under the name “Art Funds.”
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In what bank?
GÖRING: It was—I cannot say for sure, there were several banks—in
which bank exactly the art fund was deposited, I cannot say. I would
have to have the documents here for that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In the several interrogations you have never been
able to point out where that fund is, have you?
GÖRING: I cannot say, but you would only have to question my secretary
who kept account of all the funds; she can tell you quite accurately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This order, 141-PS, was carried out by the
Rosenberg Special Staff (Einsatzstab), wasn’t it?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know who carried it out, who actually was
there? Did you know Turner?
GÖRING: I did not understand the name.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know Mr. Turner?
GÖRING: I know a certain Turner, who, however, had nothing to do with
the Einsatzstab, the Rosenberg Special Staff and who, as far as I know,
was in Yugoslavia.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Wasn’t State Counsellor Turner in Paris in
connection with the art collections?
GÖRING: I repeat again so that no error is possible, you said Turner,
T-u-r-n-e-r, or Körner, K-ö-r-n-e-r?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Turner.
GÖRING: Körner?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: T-u-r-n-e-r.
GÖRING: Turner—I do not know whether he had anything to do with
Rosenberg’s Einsatzstab.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you knew him, did you not?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you know a Dr. Bunjes?
GÖRING: Bunjes, B-u-n-j-e-s, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You knew him?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He had to do with captured or confiscated Jewish
art treasures, did he not?
GÖRING: I do not believe that Dr. Bunjes had anything to do with that.
He was competent in a different field of art; but the Einsatzstab
Rosenberg and certain departments of the military administration, had
something to do with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask to have you shown, so that you can
follow me, to refresh your memory, Document 2523-PS, Exhibit Number
USA-783, a letter from Dr. Bunjes, and ask you if this refreshes your
recollection of certain events.
“On Tuesday, 4 February 1941, at 1830 hours I was ordered for
the first time to report to the Reich Marshal at the Quai
d’Orsay. Field Commander Von Behr of the Einsatzstab Rosenberg
was present. It is, of course, difficult to describe in words
the cordial atmosphere in which the conversation was held.”
Do you recall such a meeting?
GÖRING: No, it was not important enough for me to remember it, but I do
not deny it, in any case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We shall see if this refreshes your recollection:
“The Reich Marshal dropped the subject for the time being and
asked for the report of the present state of the seizure of
Jewish art property in the occupied western territories. On this
occasion he gave Herr Von Behr the photographs of those objects
of art that the Führer wants to bring into his possession. In
addition, he gave Herr Von Behr the photographs of those objects
of art that the Reich Marshal wants to acquire for himself.”
GÖRING: I cannot follow here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean you do not find these words, or you do not
recall the events?
GÖRING: No, I have not found the passage yet, and I would like to have a
little time to see the context of this letter, which was neither written
by me nor addressed to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let me call your attention to a further paragraph
of it and see if it does not refresh your recollection:
“On Wednesday, 5 February 1941, I was ordered to the Jeu de
Paume by the Reich Marshal. At 1500 o’clock, the Reich Marshal,
accompanied by General Hanesse, Herr Angerer, and Herr Hofer,
visited the exhibition of Jewish art treasures newly set up
there.”
GÖRING: Yes, I have already stated before that at Jeu de Paume I
selected the art treasures which were exhibited there. That is right.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is right; now we are getting there.
“Then, with me as his guide, the Reich Marshal inspected the
exhibited art treasures and made a selection of those works of
art which were to go to the Führer, and those which were to be
placed in his own collection.
“During this confidential conversation, I again called the Reich
Marshal’s attention to the fact that a note of protest had been
received from the French Government against the activity of the
Einsatzstab Rosenberg, with reference to the Hague Rules on Land
Warfare recognized by Germany at the Armistice of Compiegne and
I pointed out that General Von Stülpnagel’s interpretation of
the manner in which the confiscated Jewish art treasures are to
be treated, was apparently contrary to the Reich Marshal’s
interpretation. Thereupon, the Reich Marshal asked for a
detailed explanation and gave the following orders:
“‘First, it is my orders that you have to follow. You will act
directly according to my orders. The art objects collected in
the Jeu de Paume are to be loaded on a special train immediately
and taken to Germany by order of the Reich Marshal. These art
objects which are to go into the Führer’s possession, and those
art objects which the Reich Marshal claims for himself, will be
loaded on two railroad cars which will be attached to the Reich
Marshal’s special train, and upon his departure for Germany, at
the beginning of next week, will be taken along to Berlin.
Feldführer Von Behr will accompany the Reich Marshal in his
special train on the journey to Berlin.’
“When I made the objection that the jurists would probably be of
a different opinion and that protests would most likely be made
by the military commander in France, the Reich Marshal answered,
saying verbatim as follows, ‘Dear Bunjes, let me worry about
that; I am the highest jurist in the State.’
“The Reich Marshal promised to send from his headquarters by
courier to the Chief of the Military Administrative District of
Paris on Thursday, 6 February, the written order for the
transfer to Germany of the confiscated Jewish art treasures.”
Now, does that refresh your memory?
GÖRING: Not in the least, but it is not at all in contradiction to what
I have said with respect to the art treasures, with the exception of one
sentence. It is pure nonsense that I should have said that I was the
highest jurist in the state because that, thank God, I was not. That is
something which Mr. Bunjes said, and I cannot be held responsible for
every statement which anyone may have made to somebody else without my
having any possibility of correcting it. As for the rest, it corresponds
to the statement I made recently.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, the art objects then were loaded on cars and
shipped to Berlin, were they not?
GÖRING: A part of them, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I now call your attention to, and ask to have you
shown, Document 014-PS, Exhibit Number USA-784. Now, I ask you to
refresh your recollection by following this report to the Führer with
me, and tell me if this conforms with your testimony:
“I report the arrival . . .”
GÖRING: I would like to point out that this report did not come from me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understand that. I am asking if it is right or
wrong.
“I report the arrival of the principal shipment of ownerless
Jewish treasures of art at the salvage point Neuschwanstein by
special train on Saturday the 15th of this month. It was secured
by my Einsatzstab, in Paris. The special train, arranged for by
Reich Marshal Hermann Göring, comprised 25 express baggage cars
filled with the most valuable paintings, furniture, Gobelin
tapestries, works of artistic craftmanship, and ornaments. The
shipment consisted mainly of the most important parts of the
collections of Rothschild, Seligmann”—and half a dozen others.
Have you found that and is it correct?
GÖRING: I do not know whether this is correct, since the report did not
come from me. The only thing which I can remember is that I was asked by
the Einsatzstab to see to it that a sufficient number of special cars,
box cars was put at their disposal to ship the art treasures, since Jeu
de Paume was not a safe place in case of air attacks. Neuschwanstein
lies south of Munich. This concerns the objects destined for the Führer.
I should like, however, to refer to the next sentence of this document,
which was not written by me. It goes as follows:
“The confiscation actions of my Einsatzstab were begun in
October 1940 in Paris according to your order, my Führer.”
That coincides with what I have said in my previous statements.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And would you care to read further?
GÖRING: You mean where it says:
“Besides this special train, the main art objects selected by
the Reich Marshal—mainly from the Rothschild collection—had
previously been shipped in two special cars to Munich and were
there put into the air raid shelter of the Führerhaus.”
They are those most precious works of art which I had designated for the
Führer, and which were to be sent, at the wish of the Führer, to the air
raid shelter. This had nothing to do directly with my affairs, but I did
not dispute the fact, and I have explained it in detail.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When you were examined by the American Foreign
Assets Commission, you estimated your art objects as having a value, at
the time you turned them over to the government, of 50 million
Reichsmark, as I recall it. Am I right?
GÖRING: That is not quite correct. The Commission insisted on a
valuation, and the discussion continued a long time backwards and
forward. I expressly told the Commission that I could not assess the
value because I did not have the objects in hand nor a list of them, and
I could not quote them from memory; furthermore, that the estimates were
subject to fluctuation depending on the one hand upon the prices art
lovers might pay and, on the other, upon the actual market value. Since
I did not see a copy of the minutes, in spite of my pleas, and
especially as minutes of this nature often give rise to
misunderstandings, I can only acknowledge the records which I have
signed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, do you question this fact? “When I gave the
news to the Minister of Finance I estimated the value at that time at 50
million marks.” Did you say that or did you not?
GÖRING: I cannot estimate the value. I only told the Finance Minister
that the entire collection, including my own, would be turned over to
the State. And since I know my passion for collecting, I thought that it
was quite possible that something might suddenly happen to me, and that
as I had put my entire fortune into these works of art, the entire
collection might possibly become State, that is, public property, and my
family would thus be deprived of every means of subsistence. I therefore
asked him to provide for a pension or some compensation for my family.
That was the negotiation with the Finance Minister, to which he can
testify.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What proportion of your art collection was acquired
after 1933?
GÖRING: I did not understand the question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What proportion of your art collection was acquired
after 1933?
GÖRING: That I could not say in detail—quite a number of pictures and
statues.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you have claimed that some part of your art
collection you bought?
GÖRING: Certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in connection with that some inquiry was made
into your financial transactions, was there not?
GÖRING: I do not know who made the inquiries.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you were asked, were you not, about your
receipt of 7,276,000 Reichsmark from the Reemtsma cigarette factory?
GÖRING: No, I was never asked about that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were never asked about it?
GÖRING: No, neither about the amount nor about the cigarette factory,
nor anything else.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let me refresh your recollection about that. Did
you not tell them and did you not tell Colonel Amen in interrogations
that this money was given to you by this cigarette factory and that
their back taxes were canceled?
GÖRING: No, I even denied that their back taxes were ever canceled. I
remember now that the question was put to me in a different connection.
A sum of money was set aside for the so-called Adolf Hitler Fund, and
this amount the Führer put at my disposal for general cultural tasks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: By the cigarette factory?
GÖRING: Not by the cigarette factory; a number of business men
subscribed to the Adolf Hitler Fund, and Mr. Reemtsma gave me this sum
from the fund in the course of the years, after agreement with the
Führer. A part of it was allotted to the State theaters, another part
for building up art collections, and other cultural expenditure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you were interrogated on the 22d day of
December 1945 by the External Assets Branch of the United States
Investigation of Cartels and External Assets, were you not?
GÖRING: May I first say explicitly that I had been asked whether I would
be ready to make any statements about it, and was told that these
statements would in no way be connected with this Trial. Therefore the
presence of my defense counsel would not be necessary. This was
expressly told me, and was repeated to me by the prison authorities, and
before the interrogation it was again confirmed to me that these
statements should in no way be brought in in connection with this Trial.
However, that is all the same to me. You may produce them as far as I am
concerned. But because of the method employed, I desire to have this
made known here.
DR. STAHMER: I protest against the use of the statements for the reason
that has just been given by the witness. I myself sometime ago—I think
it was around Christmas—was asked by, I believe, members of the United
States Treasury whether they could interrogate the Defendant Göring on
questions of property, adding expressly that I did not have to be
present at the interrogation because this had nothing to do with the
Trial, and would not be used for it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am not able either to affirm or deny, and
therefore I will not pursue this subject further at this time. I do not
believe that any stipulation was made that these facts should not be
gone into. I was not informed of it, and if there has been, of course,
it would be absurd.
[_Turning to the witness._] Now, you were asked about receiving some art
objects from Monte Cassino.
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask you if it is not the fact that an altar
statue taken from the Cassino Abbey was brought and delivered to you,
and that you expressed great appreciation for it.
GÖRING: I am glad to be able to clarify this affair also. After the
monastery of Monte Cassino had been completely destroyed by shelling and
had been defended by a paratroop division, a delegation arrived one day
bringing along a statue of some saint, entirely worthless from an
artistic point of view, as a souvenir of this destroyed monastery. I
thanked the men and showed the statue to the curator of my art
collection, and he also considered the statue as of absolutely no value.
It then remained in the box and was put away somewhere. The other . . .
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think this is coming through sufficiently loud
for the shorthand writers to hear.
GÖRING: The rest of the art treasures from Monte Cassino, according to
my knowledge, were shipped in the following manner: A large part,
especially those objects which belonged to the old monastery itself, was
sent to the Vatican. I must assume this from the fact that the abbot of
the monastery sent me and my division a letter written in Latin in which
he expressed his extreme gratitude for this action.
Secondly, as far as I remember, the art treasures from the museum in
Naples, which were at Monte Cassino, were for the greater part sent by
us to Venice and there turned over to the Italian Government. Some
pictures and statues were brought to Berlin, and there they were turned
over to me. On the very same day I gave the list to the Führer, and some
time later also the objects themselves which were in my air raid
shelter, so that he could negotiate about the matter with Mussolini. I
did not keep a single one of these objects for my own collection. If my
troops had not intervened, these priceless art treasures, which were
stored in Monte Cassino and belonged to the monastery there, would have
been entirely destroyed by enemy bombardment, that is to say, by the
British-American attackers. Thus they have been saved.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you say of no value—no substantial value?
GÖRING: That is even now my conviction, and I depended, above all, on
the judgment of my experts. I never took this statue out of its packing
case. It did not interest me. On the other hand, I wanted to say a few
words of thanks to the men who brought it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The labor shortage in the Reich was becoming acute
by November of 1941, was it not?
GÖRING: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you yourself gave the directives for the
employment of Russian prisoners of war, did you not?
GÖRING: Employment for what?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: For war industry—tanks, artillery pieces, airplane
parts.
GÖRING: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was at the conference of the 7th of November
1941, that you gave that order, was it not?
GÖRING: At what conference that was I could not tell you; I issued these
directives only in a general way.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the directive was that Russian prisoners of war
should be selected in collecting camps beyond the Reich border, and
should be transported as rapidly as possible and employed in the
following order of priority: mining, railroad maintenance, war
industry—tanks, artillery pieces, airplane parts, agriculture, building
industry, _et cetera_. You gave that order, did you not?
GÖRING: If I have signed it, the order is from me. I do not remember
details.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the number of that, Mr. Jackson?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask to have you shown Document Number 1193-PS.
GÖRING: I have not seen it yet.
[_Document 1193-PS was submitted to the witness._]
This document, which you have just mentioned . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I did not get the answer.
GÖRING: Excuse me. I have just received a document about the use of
Russian troops. Is that the document of which you speak?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is right. I call your attention to the fact
that it is referred to as an annex in the letter signed by Göring.
GÖRING: I want to point out that this document is not signed by me, but
by Körner, which, however, does not diminish my responsibility.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not question that on the 7th day of
November 1941, you gave the order, as Körner reports it, do you, in the
document referred to as 1193-PS?
GÖRING: I said only that it was not signed by me but by Körner, and here
even a still younger official, a Regierungsrat, and I wanted only to
explain that this was my field and that therefore I assume
responsibility. But I have not read it through yet. This deals with
directives and outlines which I gave in general and which were then
filled in and revised by the department concerned, whereby naturally not
every word or every sentence written here was said or dictated by
myself. But that does not alter the fact that I bear the responsibility
for it, even if I did not know it in detail, or would have perhaps
formulated it differently. But the general directives were given by me
and implemented accordingly by the lesser authorities.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You also gave the order, did you not, that 100,000
men were to be taken from among the French prisoners of war not yet
employed in armament industry? Gaps in manpower resulting therefrom will
be filled by Soviet prisoners of war. The transfer of the above-named
French prisoners of war is to be accomplished by October the 1st. You
gave the order, did you not?
GÖRING: That is correct. Here we deal primarily with the fact that a
large part of French skilled workers who were prisoners of war were
turned into free workers on condition that they worked in the German
armament industry. The shortages which occurred at their previous places
of work at that time, where they had worked as prisoners of war, were to
be remedied by Russian prisoners of war, because I considered it
pointless that qualified skilled industrial workers should be employed
in agriculture, for instance, or in any other field not corresponding to
their abilities. Thus there was an incentive in the fact that these
people could become free workers instead of remaining prisoners of war,
if they would agree to these conditions. The directives were given by
me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you know that there was any forced labor
employed in Germany?
GÖRING: Compulsory labor.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not testify under interrogation on the 3rd
of October 1945, that:
“I would like to add something to the last question of the
interrogation. The Colonel asked me if the forced labor program
was effective, and I said ‘Yes’. There are two remarks I would
like to make to that.
“All right.
“I must say that in the results as such it was effective.
However, a great number of acts of sabotage did occur, and also
treason and espionage.
“Question: But on the whole you would say it was a successful
program from the German point of view?
“Answer: Yes. Without this manpower many things could never have
been achieved.”
Did you say that?
GÖRING: That is obvious, because without workers one cannot do any work.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think you answered the question. The question
was if you said the forced labor had been a success. What do you have to
say to that? Did you say that?
GÖRING: I have said what I did in answering the question whether the
manpower used was successful; yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you were shown a document, 3700-PS, written by
Schacht to you, and you have said that you received it?
GÖRING: Yes, I remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you and Schacht were somewhat rivals in the
economic field at one period, were you not?
GÖRING: I explained that only recently, and to what extent.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You wanted his position abolished in the event of
war and he wanted your position abolished in event of war, did he
not—your economic position?
GÖRING: Not quite. They were two similar authorities having similar
powers at the same time, two personalities, and that in the long run was
not possible. It simply had to be decided which one of the two should be
the sole authority. That would have been especially necessary in case of
a mobilization.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You, in testifying on the 17th day of October last,
as to your relations with Schacht, made this statement, did you not, in
reference to your disagreements with Schacht: “This I must underline:
Schacht always tried to maneuver for a new post, while all the other
ministers co-operated absolutely.” Did you say that?
GÖRING: Not exactly as it is there, but I wanted to emphasize that,
contrary to the other ministers who obediently followed my directives
for the Four Year Plan, I had certain difficulties with Schacht, which I
have already explained, due to his original and strong personality.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The question was whether you made that statement in
substance or in those words?
GÖRING: Not exactly in these words, but as I have just explained, in
substance.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, do you have in mind Schacht’s letter to you,
Document Number 3700-PS?
GÖRING: Yes, I read it a short time ago.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in that letter Schacht said this to you, did he
not, referring to 3700-PS? “It may be militarily necessary . . .” Do you
want to follow it?
[_Document 3700-PS was submitted to the witness._]
“It may be militarily necessary to conscript the 15-year-olds,
but it will heavily tax the fighting morale of the German
people. The facts as the German people see them are as follows:
“First, the original prospect of a short war has not been
realized.
“Second, the prospective quick victory over England by the Air
Force did not materialize.
“Third, the public statement that Germany would remain free of
enemy air raids has not been fulfilled.
“Fourth, the repeated announcements that the Russian resistance
was definitely broken have been proved to be untrue.
“Fifth, Allied supplies of arms to Russia, and the manpower
reserves of Russia have, on the contrary, been sufficient to
bring continuous heavy counterattacks against our Eastern Front.
“Sixth, the original victorious advance into Egypt has been
halted after repeated attempts.
“Seventh, the landing of the Allies in North and West Africa,
declared impossible, has nevertheless been accomplished.
“Eighth, the extremely large amount of shipping space which was
required for this landing has shown that our U-boats, in spite
of their great successes, did not suffice to prevent this
transport. In addition, the reductions in civilian traffic, in
material for armaments, and in the availability of manpower are
obvious to all the people.
“The conscription of the 15-year-olds will increase the doubts
concerning the termination of this war.”
Can you fix any more definitely than you have done the date when you
received that letter?
GÖRING: I can only say again that it is dated the 3rd of November, but
the year is missing. If I were to be given a copy where the year is
stated, I could give an exact answer. I have said recently that,
according to my knowledge of events, it is a question of either November
1944 or November 1943. But, unfortunately, that is not indicated here. I
can only see 3rd of November. The year is missing.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know when Schacht was sent to the
concentration camp? Do you know the date of that?
GÖRING: Not exactly, but now that you remind me of it, I can say that
this letter certainly was not written in 1944 because in November 1944,
I believe, Mr. Schacht was already in the concentration camp;
consequently, it must date back to November 1943.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he was sent to the concentration camp shortly
after dispatching that letter to you, wasn’t he?
GÖRING: No, that is not correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How much longer was he at large?
GÖRING: The letter is of 3 November 1943, as we have just found. I heard
about the arrest of Schacht only after the attempt on the life of the
Führer and after my return a few days later, after an illness of some
time, that is to say, in September 1944. There is not the least
connection between this letter and his arrest, because, when I asked
about his arrest, I was told definitely it was in connection with the
20th of July.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you make an agreement, as Supreme Commander of
the Air Force, with the Reichsführer SS, the Youth Führer of the German
Reich, and the Reich Minister for Occupied Eastern Territories, about
the recruiting of youthful Russians, Ukrainians, White Russians,
Lithuanians, and Tartars between the ages of 15 and 20? Did you come to
some agreement with Himmler and Rosenberg about that?
GÖRING: That I personally concluded such an agreement, I do not think
so. It is possible and even probable that my office did so, however.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you have testified yesterday or the day
before—I think Friday—as follows; let me refresh your recollection
about the questions of confiscations.
“Now, about the question of confiscation of State property and
it was only such property that was confiscated. As far as I
know, private property is mentioned in the official report as
far as the winter of 1941 and 1942 is concerned, that might have
been the case in the matter of furs or perhaps fur boots, and
some soldiers may have taken little odds and ends from the
people; but on the whole there was no private property and so
none could be confiscated.”
And I think you also said that you never took anything, not even so much
as a screw or a bolt, when you were in occupation of foreign territory.
Do you recall that testimony?
GÖRING: Very exactly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you still stand on it?
GÖRING: Of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask to have you shown a Document EC-317.
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, that is a secret command matter, is it not,
dated the 7th of September 1943? Is that right?
GÖRING: I have a letter here before me of 21 February 1944.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then you have the wrong exhibit—EC-317, Page 3.
GÖRING: Yes; Page 3.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This letter of transmittal we will not bother
about. Your secret command matter is dated 7 September 1943, is it not?
GÖRING: That is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it reads as follows:
“Concerning the removal of the harvested crops and the
destruction of the means of production in the agricultural and
food economy in parts of the Occupied Eastern Territories.
“By direction of the Führer, I give the following orders:
“First: In the territories east of the line fixed by the highest
military command, the following measures are to be taken
gradually, according to the military situation at the time. The
measures are to be determined by the commanders of the army
groups:
“(1) All agricultural products, means of production, and
machinery of enterprises serving the agriculture and food
industry are to be removed.
“(2) The factories serving the food economy, both in the field
of production and of processing, are to be destroyed.
“(3) The basis of agricultural production, especially the
records and establishments, storage plants, _et cetera_, of the
organizations responsible for the food economy, are to be
destroyed.
“(4) The population engaged in the agricultural and food economy
is to be transported into the territory west of the fixed line.”
Right?
GÖRING: Absolutely correct; but I want to make the following statement
in connection with it. We are dealing here with purely military measures
in a retreat, and may I comment on these four points: I emphasized the
other day that a great number of agricultural machines had been brought
to Russia by us. As the Russians, in their retreat, destroyed
everything, we had all the less military reason to allow the machinery
of industries which we had set up and brought there to fall into their
hands undestroyed. This concerns an urgently necessary military order
which had been issued during a retreat, and which was executed in the
same way as before in the reverse sense. It does not deal with any sort
of private property.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it was signed by you?
GÖRING: Yes, this order bears my signature.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am about to go into a different subject, may it
please Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we will adjourn now.
[_A recess was taken._]
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask that the witness be shown a document,
3786-PS, of which there are no extra copies available because it came to
us so late. I will ask you to examine that and tell me whether you
recall the meeting to which these minutes refer?
GÖRING: We are apparently concerned here with a report dealing with a
meeting which took place daily with the Führer. As meetings occurred
once or twice daily, I naturally cannot, with any accuracy, without
first having read the report, recall the report of 27 January 1945, for
I was present at a great number of these meetings during the course of
the war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I shall call your attention to specific incidents
in it. The minutes indicate that the Führer, yourself, Keitel, and Jodl
were present, were they not?
GÖRING: That is according to the notes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I will call your attention to Page 31 and ask
you to follow with me the notes and see if it refreshes your
recollection. Now this relates to 10,000 imprisoned air force officers.
I quote what is attributed to you.
“Göring: Near Sagan, there are 10,000 imprisoned air force
officers. Their custody is the responsibility of the
Commander-in-Chief of the Reserve Army (B.d.E.). Personnel for
guarding or transporting them is said to be lacking. The
suggestion was made as to whether the prisoners should not be
left to their Soviet Russian allies. It would give them 10,000
airmen.
“The Führer: Why did you not remove them earlier? This is an
unequaled bungling.
“Göring: That is the business of the commander of the B.d.E. We
have nothing to do with it. I can only report it.
“The Führer: They must be removed, even if they have to go on
foot. The Volkssturm must be called in. Anyone who escapes will
be shot. Any means must be used.
“Göring: That is from Sagan, there are 10,000 men.
“Guderian: In the transfer process the 4th Armored Division has
been moved out completely, also the 227th Division; the
remainder of the 32d Division is now moving out. The next in
line is the Headquarters of the 3rd SS Panzer Corps which will
move tonight, and tomorrow night the Division Niederland, which
has already pulled out. Parts of the Division Nordland have also
been withdrawn from the front.
“The Führer: Are they to get replacements? Are they already on
the move?
“Guderian: Fegelein took care of that. He has already ordered
that they should be replenished immediately.
“The Führer: It is absolutely clear that the Army Group Vistula
has nothing, for the time being, besides the Corps Nehring, the
one group, and what it has on the Vistula. This must be
organized. It will come from here and partly from Germany. It
must be done, notwithstanding.
“Göring: How many cattle cars are needed for 10,000 men?
“The Führer: If we transport them according to German standards,
then we need at least 20 transport trains for 10,000 men. If we
transport them according to Russian standards, we need 5 or 3.
“Göring: Take their pants and boots off so that they cannot walk
in the snow.”
Do you recall that incident?
GÖRING: I remember this incident but vaguely.
Now that I have given the answer I would like to give a short
explanation of the value of this document.
I understood that this document has just now arrived, but I have already
been interrogated with respect to this document long before the
beginning of the proceedings. Already at that time I pointed out that at
the stenographic recording of a meeting two stenographers took notes at
the same time, since the meetings often lasted 4 or 5 hours, and
therefore these stenographic notes always had to be gone over
afterwards, especially as frequently, because of the presence of many
men, inaccuracies occurred in the recordings so that statements made by
one person were credited to another in the minutes. For that reason I
said at that time already that not only did I not remember this
statement, but that in my opinion I have never made this statement. We
were concerned solely with the preparation of motor vehicles for
transport.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I must say that you were interrogated with
reference to the incident, but not with reference to these notes which
were not transcribed.
GÖRING: In respect to this transcript and this incident, it was
especially emphasized that we were concerned with the stenotype record
of the report of the meeting, and I already uttered a similar opinion at
that time. It was not submitted to me at that time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Not stenotype, but stenographic.
You are also reported on Page 35. I call your attention to this and ask
you, is it attributed to you mistakenly?
“Göring: The 10,000 prisoners in Sagan should be transported
away by Obergruppenführer Jüttner.” Perhaps I do not pronounce
the word as you would.
“The Führer: These prisoners must be removed by all available
means. Volkssturm must be employed with the most energetic men.
All who attempt to flee will be shot.
“Fegelein: We have a man for that who guards the concentration
camps. That is Gruppenführer Glücks. He must do the job.”
Did that occur?
GÖRING: That I do not know. I have already testified before that the
B.d.E. had to take charge of the transportation, because we had nothing
to do with it. What ideas and opinions the other gentlemen expressed in
the discussions I cannot completely testify to, or state here. It was a
question of whether these 10,000 were to be surrendered or shipped away.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask you a question or two about the Warsaw
bombing. Was it known to you that on the 3rd of September, the house of
the Ambassador of the United States, situated some 17 kilometers out of
Warsaw, was bombed by the German Air Force?
GÖRING: No; that is unknown to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your Air Force took a good many pictures of the
Polish villages and of Warsaw and used them for distributing among the
German people, didn’t they?
GÖRING: That is possible, I was not concerned with that. In any event,
the Luftwaffe did not distribute pictures to the German people. It is
possible that pictures taken by the Luftwaffe might have got into the
German press by way of the Propaganda Ministry. But distribution, in the
sense of the Luftwaffe’s distributing photographs like leaflets, never
occurred.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Luftwaffe did take the pictures for the purpose
of determining the efficiency of its hits, did it not?
GÖRING: The Luftwaffe took pictures before the target was bombed, and
again after the target had been bombed, to determine whether the target
had actually been hit.