“I told the Führer of the Reich Marshal’s wish to utilize the
producing capacity of prisoners of war further by placing the
Stalag under the SS, with the exception of the English and
Americans? The Führer approves this proposal and has asked
Colonel Von Below to take the necessary steps.”
I ask you how the SS could increase the production of the prisoners of
war; what steps you expected to be taken?
Now, just answer my question. What steps did you expect the SS to take
to increase the production of the prisoners of war?
MILCH: I cannot remember now. At any rate at that time we did not know
what was being done by the SS—about their methods as we now know them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This was in March of 1944.
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you have no knowledge of the methods by which
the SS would be able to speed up production by prisoners of war. That is
the way you want that to stand?
MILCH: No, that is not the way I want it to stand. I have to think this
point over for a moment. I believe the point was whether or not
prisoners of war should be made available. It was not a question of
prisoners of war working for the SS, but of their being made available
for work. That, I take it was the point.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Put at the disposal of the SS, you mean?
Well, let us go on to the 33d Conference by the Central Planning Board,
held on the 16th of February 1943, at which Speer and Sauckel among
others appear to have been present. The English translation is on Page
28; the German, Pages 2276 to 2307. There was at this meeting, to
summarize, considerable discussion of the labor situation, first a
report from Schreiber, and then Timm gave a general account of the labor
situation, and I call your attention to your contribution on Page 2298
at the top.
MILCH: Yes, I have just read it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It is as follows:
“Milch: We have demanded that in the anti-aircraft artillery a
certain percentage of personnel should consist of Russians.
Fifty thousand in all should be brought in. Thirty thousand are
already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing, that
Russians must work the guns . . .”
What was amusing about making the Russian prisoners of war work the
guns?
MILCH: The words “We have demanded,” do not mean the Central Planning
Board, but that Hitler made this demand.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: “We” means Hitler?
MILCH: Yes, the German Government. And I myself find it strange that
prisoners of war should be made to shoot at planes of their allies. We
did not like it because it meant that these men could no longer work for
us. We were opposed to their being used in the anti-aircraft artillery.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You said: “This is an amusing thing that the
Russians must work the guns.”
What was amusing about it?
MILCH: What is meant by amusing? . . . peculiar, strange, I cannot say,
however, whether this word was actually used. I have not seen the
minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention to the rest of your
contribution.
“. . . 20,000 are still needed. Yesterday I received a letter
from the Army High Command, stating: We cannot release any more
men, we have not enough ourselves. Thus there is no prospect for
us.”
Whom does “for us” refer to, if not to your industry requirements?
MILCH: I consider these minutes incorrect, it has never been discussed
in this manner, it must be wrong. I cannot accept the minutes as they
stand. To clarify this matter I may say that the proposal was to take
people out of the armament industry and put them into anti-aircraft
defense. We who were concerned with armament did not want to release
these men and were opposed to it. That was the idea of the whole thing,
and the OKH declared that they did not have enough people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understand the sense of this to be that you
applied for certain workmen for the armament industry and that the Army
High Command refused to give you the men, saying that they are already
employed making guns and on other work. Now, is that the sense of that,
or is it not?
MILCH: No, not quite.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, just tell me what the sense of it is.
MILCH: As far as I remember, the armament industry was to release 50,000
Russian prisoners of war to the Air Force for anti-aircraft defense, and
the armament industry could not spare these people.
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid we must adjourn due to some technical
difficulty.
[_A recess was taken._]
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, it may be convenient to you to know
that we are going to rise at 4:30 today.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I hope to have finished before.
[_Turning to the witness._] I will ask to have your attention called to
Page 2297, in the English translation about Page 28, to your
contribution, which reads as follows:
“Milch: There is of course a front also somewhere in the East.
This front will be held for a certain time. The only useful
thing the Russians will find in an area evacuated by us, is
people. The question is whether the people should not generally
be taken back as far as 100 kilometers behind the front line.
The whole civilian population goes 100 kilometers behind the
front.”
Do you find that?
MILCH: Yes, I have found it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I understood you this morning to state that it
was a rule promulgated in your book that the civilian population should
not be interfered with.
MILCH: From the last paragraph, according to which people were no longer
to be employed on digging trenches, it appears that these people were
last employed on this work. I cannot say what kind of people these were,
only that they were already employed somewhere.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew that. You knew that they were being
used for that kind of work?
MILCH: So it says here. I do not remember it any more. It has been
recorded in the minutes, provided they are correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew they were being used, the civilian
population was being forced to dig trenches for your troops.
MILCH: Today I cannot remember any more, but at that time it was
discussed according to the minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I will ask to have your attention called to
the minutes of Conference Number 11 of the Central Planning Board, held
on 22d of July 1942; German, Page 3062; English translation, 38.
First let me call your attention to the fact that at that meeting it
appears that among those present were Speer, yourself, Körner. Did
Körner represent the Reich Marshal?
MILCH: Yes, for the Four Year Plan; he was the representative for the
Four Year Plan.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At all meetings of this Board, Körner represented
the Reich Marshal did he not?
MILCH: Yes. He represented him as regards the Four Year Plan.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Sauckel was present, and representatives from
the Iron Association, the Coal Association, and the Ministry for
Armament and Munitions.
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There was considerable discussion of the labor
problem, and the requirements of those industries. On Page 3062 I call
your attention to this entry:
“General Field Marshal Milch undertakes to accelerate the
procuring of the Russian prisoners of war from the camps.”
I ask you what measures you expected to take to accelerate procuring
prisoners of war from the camps.
MILCH: As I was a soldier I undertook to submit this question to the
OKW, which was in charge of prisoners of war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not personally deal with the prisoners of
war, but you undertook to obtain them from the OKW?
MILCH: The government had put these prisoners of war at our disposal for
work. The transfer was very slow, and as we had to deal with the OKW in
this matter, I was asked and I undertook to request the OKW to speed up
the transfer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now let us turn to Conference Number 36, dated 22d
of April 1943; the English translation, Page 13; German, 2125. There
again I call your attention to the fact that Speer, yourself, Sauckel,
and Körner were among those present. There again you discussed the labor
problem, did you not?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Körner reported as follows:
“On 1 April agriculture was still in need of about 600,000
workers. To cover this, labor from the East, mainly women,
should be brought in. This labor must be supplied before we take
other workers away from agriculture. We are now approaching a
very busy season in work on the land which requires many
workers,”—and considerably more, which I will not take the time
to quote.
I call your attention to Page 2128, your contribution to that
discussion, which reads as follows:
“If you do what I proposed and what has also been agreed to by
Timm, no harm can be done. It should definitely be done.
Moreover, I am also of the opinion that in any circumstances we
have to bring in workers for coal mining. The bulk of the labor
we are going to receive from the East, will be women. The women
from the East are, however, accustomed to agricultural work,
particularly to the kind of work which will have to be done
during the next few weeks, that is, hoeing and planting of root
crops, _et cetera_. We can use women quite well for this. Only
one thing has to be kept in mind—agriculture must get the women
before the men are taken away. It would be wrong to take men
away and to leave the farmers without labor for 4 to 6 weeks. If
the women come after that, it will be too late.”
I ask you how many women were transported to agriculture as a result of
this conference?
MILCH: As a result of this conference none at all, as only suggestions
were put forward by us for an arrangement between industry and
agriculture to procure the necessary labor for the former. Without the
necessary labor in the coal-mining industry the war could not be carried
on. Therefore labor had to be found, and in this respect a suggestion
was made for an exchange, namely, to replace men engaged in agriculture
by women, who, of course, could not be put to work in the mines.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: To whom did you make these suggestions? You say
they were not decisions but just suggestions.
MILCH: No. The suggestions were made to representatives of the Ministry
of Labor or to the Office for the Allocation of Labor. I see Timm is
mentioned. He was one of the higher officials in this ministry.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Sauckel?
MILCH: I do not know whether Sauckel attended that conference. I see
only Timm’s name.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It appears from the minutes that he was there; but
whether he was or not, you made suggestions to Sauckel as to the needs
for labor, did you not, and called upon him to supply them?
MILCH: Yes; it was necessary to get workers for coal mining. New workers
could not be found, thus there was no alternative but to make an
exchange.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We understand you. You will save a great deal of
our time if you will just answer the questions.
Now I call your attention to Conference Number 54 of the Central
Planning Board, held on 1 March 1944; English translation Page 1, German
Page 1762. At this conference I remind you that it appears that Sauckel,
Milch, Schreiber, and Körner were among those present. It was held at
the Air Ministry and you discussed the desirability of draining off
young men from France so that they would not be available to act as
partisans in case there was an invasion by the Allies of French
territory.
Do you recall such a meeting?
MILCH: I cannot remember details. In the course of other interrogations
here in Nuremberg and in England I already stated that it is impossible
to remember in detail all these matters, which were heaped upon us,
especially as my memory has suffered through heavy blows on the head
received at the time of my capture.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It will help you if you will refer to Page 1799,
opposite the name “Milch” and read the entry, as follows:
“Milch: If landings take place in France and more or less
succeed, we will have in France a partisan uprising, such as we
never had in the Balkans or in the East, not because the people
are particularly able to carry it through, but because we allow
them to do so by failing to deal with them in the right manner.
Four entire age groups have grown up in France, men between 18
and 23, that is, of an age when young people, for patriotic
reasons or because they have been stirred up, are prepared to do
anything to satisfy personal hatred—and it is only natural that
they do hate us. These young men should have been registered
according to age groups and brought to us, as they constitute
the greatest danger in the event of a landing.
“I am firmly convinced, and have said so several times, that if
and when the invasion starts, acts of sabotage to railways,
works, and supply bases will be a daily occurrence. The
Wehrmacht, however, will then no longer be able to deal with
this internal situation, as it will have to fight at the front
and will have in its rear a very dangerous enemy who will
threaten supplies, _et cetera_. If severe executive measures had
been taken, all would have been as quiet as the grave behind the
front at a time when things were about to happen. I have drawn
attention to this several times, but I am afraid nothing is
being done. When we have to start shooting these people, it will
already be too late. We shall no longer have the men to polish
off the partisans.”
You then go on to state that you think the Army should handle the
executive action required in rounding up these people. Does that refresh
your recollection?
MILCH: Yes, that was roughly what I meant to say, but I cannot say
whether I used these very words. In this life and death struggle of our
country we had to make sure that we were not suddenly stabbed in the
back by a secret army, as unfortunately happened later on.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you proposed to eliminate the population behind
the lines insofar as they might constitute a menace to your operations
in this invasion?
MILCH: No, it was proposed to send these people at the right time to
work in Germany, as had been promised by the French Government. That was
my view. It was necessary that these people should come to work in
Germany, as the French Government had promised in its agreement with the
German Government, instead of allowing these people to join the Maquis
and commit sabotage, which would necessitate shootings as a
countermeasure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not confine your use of forced labor to
your enemies; it was also applied against your own allies, was it not?
For example turn to Page 1814, and did you not contribute to this
discussion?
“Milch: Would not the S-factories”—that is, protected
factories—“be better protected if we handle the whole problem
of feeding the Italians and tell them: ‘You will get your food
only if you work in S-factories or come to Germany.’”
MILCH: That was after a part of Italy had broken away, and it applied to
Italian soldiers who had declared themselves against Mussolini. These
people remained behind the front, did not want to work, and committed
sabotage against the German Armed Forces. Thus it was proposed to say to
these people, “You will have your food and everything else provided, but
you will have to work somewhere, either in Italy in the iron ore mines,
or in Germany.”
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you said in your direct examination, or
perhaps earlier in your cross-examination, that you did not know about
any forced labor from occupied territory, you had no knowledge of that.
Is that still your statement?
MILCH: I did not quite understand that. Forced labor?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Forced labor, yes.
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not know about it?
MILCH: These people were prisoners of war, Italians, who were at our
disposal for work according to an agreement with the Italian Government
which we had recognized. Mussolini had expressly put these men at our
disposal for this purpose.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Excuse me for interrupting you, but let us not
bother with Mussolini here. I ask you whether you still stand by the
statement you made earlier, as I recall it, that you did not know of any
forced labor brought in from the occupied countries to Germany. Is that
your statement, or is it not?
MILCH: Insofar as they were free workers and free people, I still
maintain this. My point is that these were people who had been placed at
our disposal, and, Mr. Justice, as far as we are concerned, at the time
this was said there was still an Italian Government, though this fact is
forgotten today; but at that time it still existed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask that your attention be brought to Page 1827
of the minutes of this meeting at which you were present, and where the
discussion you just admitted took place; and I call your attention to
the line opposite the name “Sauckel,” from which it appears that Sauckel
then reported: “Out of the 5 million foreign workers who arrived in
Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily.”
MILCH: No, I cannot remember that at all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You do not have any recollection of that? All
right.
MILCH: No, I have no recollection of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we will go on then to Conference Number 23 of
the Central Planning Board, held the 3rd of November 1942. It is the
English translation, Page 27. The German text is on Page 1024, in which
it appears that you were present at and participated in the discussion,
and I call your attention to Page 1024, Line 10, to these entries of the
stenographic minutes:
“Speer: Well, under the pretext of industry we could deceive the
French into believing that we would release all prisoners of war
who are rollers and smelters if they give us the names.
“Rohland: We have installed our own office in Paris. I see, you
mean the French should give the names of the smelters who are
prisoners of war in Germany?
“Milch: I would simply say, you get two men in exchange for one.
“Speer: The French firms know exactly which prisoners of war are
smelters. Unofficially, you should create the impression that
they would be released. They give us the names and then we get
them out. Have a try.
“Rohland: That is an idea.”
Now, your contribution was to want two men in place of one; is that
right?
MILCH: Yes; that is to say, two people from another trade for one of
these particular skilled workers. In what straits we were, you can see
from . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was your entire objective?
MILCH: The entire purpose was to get these people and to give them
others in exchange.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, let us take up Conference Number 53 of the
Planning Board, held the 16th of February 1944; English translation,
Page 26, and the German from Page 1851 on. You will find yourself
included among those who were present and it was at the Reich Air
Ministry that it was held. I first call your attention to the entry on
Page 1863, the words opposite “Milch”:
“The armament industry employs foreign workers in large numbers;
according to the latest figures, 40%. The latest allocations
from the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor are
mostly foreigners and we had to give up many German workers in
the recruitment drive. Particularly the aircraft industry, which
is a young industry, employs a great many young men who should
be called up. This will, however, be very difficult, as those
working for experimental stations cannot be touched. In mass
production, the foreign workers preponderate and in some
instances represent 95 percent and even more; 88 percent of the
workers engaged in the production of our newest engines are
Russian prisoners of war and the 12 percent are German men and
women. On the Ju-52, which are now regarded as transport planes
only, and the monthly production of which is from 50 to 60
machines, only six to eight German workers are engaged; the rest
are Ukrainian women who have lowered the record of production of
skilled workers.”
Do you recall that?
MILCH: Yes, I can remember that distinctly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And on Page 1873, you come forward with this
suggestion:
“Milch: The list of slackers should be handed to Himmler. He
will make them work all right. This is of a great general
educational importance, and has also a deterrent effect on
others who would also like to shirk.”
MILCH: Yes, this applies again to the slackers in agriculture as I
mentioned this morning.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Among foreign workers, was it not?
MILCH: No; these were Englishmen, the slackers.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Englishmen are foreigners in Germany, are they not?
I do not know what you mean, they were not foreigners. They were
Englishmen.
MILCH: Englishmen never worked for us. So they cannot have been
Englishmen.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What were they? You say they were all German.
MILCH: What we understood as slackers were those people who were
compelled to work during the war, Germans who normally were not regular
workers, but were forcibly made to work during the war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: We will get to that in a minute. First, I want to
ask you how Himmler was going to make them work. What did Himmler do,
what methods did Himmler use? Why were you making proposals to Himmler
in this matter?
MILCH: Because Himmler at a meeting had stated that as regards
supplementary rations—the worker in Germany had the same basic rations
as the rest of the population, and apart from this he received quite
considerable additions which in the case of those doing the heaviest
work were several times the normal basic rations. The general routine
was that these rations were issued by food offices, irrespective of
where and how the individual was working. The suggestion was made by
Himmler that these additions should be made dependent upon the output of
the workers. This was possible in the case of those workers who came
from concentration camps, _et cetera_, and were under Himmler. This
procedure could not be applied to free workers; hence the proposal to
bring to reason those who sabotaged work in their own country, by
issuing additional rations, as laid down for their type of work, only in
proportion to their output.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You know the difference between labor camps and
concentration camps, do you not?
MILCH: Yes, of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And these people who were doing work in these
industries were kept mainly in the work camps, were they not, in which
their rations were controlled without Himmler’s hands being in it at
all?
MILCH: No; the German workers were not kept in labor camps but they
lived at home and, therefore, received their additional rations from the
local food offices. I want to stress again that it was the German
workers themselves who asked that measures be taken—the factory
foremen, who were infuriated to see that people who did not do anything,
who let their country down in times of stress, received more rations
than ordinary civilians.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You still say that all you are talking about were
German and never foreign workers. Now, be clear about that.
MILCH: By slackers I meant German workers; in my opinion, only these
were in question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask that your attention be called to Page 1913:
This is your contribution at that point:
“Milch: It is therefore quite impossible to utilize every
foreigner fully unless we make them do piecework and are in a
position to take measures against foreigners who are not doing
their bit.”
Do you find that entry?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And then you proceed to complain that:
“If a foreman lays his hands on a prisoner of war and boxes his
ears, there is at once a terrible row; the man is put in prison,
and so on. There are many officials in Germany who consider it
their first duty to stand up for other men’s human rights
instead of looking after war production. I, too, am for human
rights, but if a Frenchman says, ‘You fellows will be hanged and
the works manager will be the first to have his head cut off’
and then if the boss says, ‘I’ll give him one for that,’ then he
is in for it. Nobody sides with the manager, but only with the
‘poor devil’ who said that to him.”
Did you report that to the meeting?
MILCH: That may well be the case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did you suggest?
MILCH: I can remember cases where foreign workers threatened and even
assaulted their German foreman, and when he defended himself action was
taken against him. I did not think it right.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you provided your own remedy, did you not? In
the next line you say:
“I told my engineers, ‘If you do not hit a man like this, then I
shall punish you. The more you do in this respect, the more I
shall think of you; I shall see to it that nothing happens to
you.’ This has not yet gone round. I cannot talk to every works
manager individually. But I should like to see some one try to
stop me, as I can deal with anyone who tries it.”
Do you find that?
MILCH: I cannot remember the exact words but I stick to the point that
it was an impossible situation for a prisoner or foreign worker to be
able to say to his German foreman, “We will cut your throat,” and the
foreman . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, do you mean to say that if a prisoner of war
attempted or threatened to cut his employer’s throat, that German
officers would stand up for him as against the employer? You do not mean
that, do you?
[_There was no response._]
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, we will go on:
“If the small works manager”—I am still quoting from you—“does
that, he is put into a concentration camp . . .”
Do you find that?
MILCH: Yes, I see it here.