MILCH: The agreement was drawn up in writing.
DR. SIEMERS: Had the British and German Air Forces establishment plans
for each year?
MILCH: No. The plans covered several years.
DR. SIEMERS: How many years ahead were covered by the 1937 plan?
MILCH: I cannot tell you from memory. At that time it may possibly have
covered 2 or 3 years.
DR. SIEMERS: That would have been from 1938 till 1940?
MILCH: Possibly 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940. I cannot say for certain. I have
forgotten.
DR. SIEMERS: Had this plan a technical name? Was it called
“Establishment Plan,” or did it have some other name?
MILCH: I cannot remember now. We generally referred to it as the
projected establishment plan.
DR. SIEMERS: On the English side, were the plans also drawn up to cover
a definite period—say 3 years?
MILCH: I believe the periods covered were very much the same. The system
was more or less the same.
DR. SIEMERS: I thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution now wish to cross-examine? Mr.
Justice Jackson, I am sorry to have called you up. Perhaps it would be
convenient to adjourn for 10 minutes now.
[_A recess was taken._]
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Witness, you are a prisoner of war of the United
States at the present time?
MILCH: No, I am not a prisoner of war of the United States. I was an
English prisoner of war, and since I have been here I have been declared
an internee. I do not know what that means. At any rate, it is not
correct to apply it to a prisoner-of-war officer taken by the enemy
during action before the end of hostilities.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have been allowed to confer with counsel both
while this Trial was in progress and . . .
MILCH: I have been able to confer with some of the Counsel for the
Defense, not with all of them. I assume that the other Defense Counsel
did not desire it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you will save a great deal of time if you will
answer my questions as briefly as possible and with “yes” or “no” where
possible. You have been allowed to prepare, keep, and bring to the Court
notes after your consultations with counsel?
MILCH: The notes which I had with me were made by me before I conferred
with defendants’ counsel.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have made none of the notes since your
consultations with counsel?
MILCH: I made one note for myself about one consultation. It was merely
about a date which had been mentioned to me and which otherwise I could
not have remembered.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you occupied a very high position in the German
Air Force?
MILCH: I was Inspector General.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You frequently attended conferences on behalf of
Göring?
MILCH: On behalf of Göring, very rarely.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You deny that you attended conferences on behalf of
Göring frequently?
MILCH: No. I do not deny it at all, but I was called upon to attend some
of these conferences by virtue of my own office. I rarely had occasion
to represent Göring as he usually attended these conferences himself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You had a very large part in building up the
Luftwaffe, did you not?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you were honored for that, were you not, in
1941, by the Hitler regime?
MILCH: 1941—no; I believe, Mr. Justice Jackson, you mean 1940.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: 1940—well, perhaps I am wrong.
MILCH: You mean the promotion to Field Marshal, don’t you?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was your promotion to Field Marshal?
MILCH: On 19 July 1940.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you not receive a gift from the Hitler
regime in recognition of your services?
MILCH: In 1942, on the occasion of my fiftieth birthday, I received a
recognition.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the recognition was in the form of cash, wasn’t
it?
MILCH: Yes, it was a cash recognition, with which I could buy myself an
estate.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what did it consist of?
MILCH: The sum amounted to 250,000 marks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And now you come here to testify, as I understand
your testimony, that the regime of which you were a part put Germany
into a war for which it was in no way prepared. Do I understand you
correctly?
MILCH: It is correct insofar as Germany in 1939 entered into a war for
which she was not prepared as far as the Air Force was concerned.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did the head of the Air Force ever give any warning
of that fact to the German people?
MILCH: That I am unable to say. I do not believe he could do that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You do not know that he ever did do it, do you?
MILCH: I cannot remember that he ever gave such a warning to the people
publicly. I assume that the warning was given to his superior military
officer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what officer would be above him?
MILCH: That would be the Führer, Adolf Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Führer, yes.
MILCH: As a soldier, the Reich Marshal could not address himself to the
public.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, can you point to any time at any meeting of
the High Command, or at any other meeting that the Führer called, when
Reich Marshal Göring, in the presence of any of these people, raised the
question that Germany was not prepared for war?
MILCH: I cannot remember such a conference, because such conferences
were held only between the two people concerned. The Reich Marshal never
strongly opposed the Führer in public, or before any large group of his
officers, because Hitler would not have tolerated such opposition.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know of any occasion when any one of the
defendants in the box ever took a public position against going to war?
MILCH: Publicly, no; I cannot remember any occasion. But I rather think
that also to the gentlemen who now stand accused the whole question of
the war came as a great surprise.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You would like to believe that?
MILCH: I do believe it, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You do believe it. How long did it take the German
Armed Forces to conquer Poland?
MILCH: To conquer Poland—18 days, I believe.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Eighteen days. How long did it take to drive
England off the Continent, including the disaster of Dunkirk?
MILCH: I believe 6 weeks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How long did it take to overrun Holland and
Belgium?
MILCH: A few days.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How long did it take to overrun France and take
Paris?
MILCH: Two months in all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And how long did it take to overrun Denmark and
take possession of Norway?
MILCH: Also a short time. Denmark took a very short time, because
Denmark gave in immediately, and Norway gave in in a few weeks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you testify, and you want this Tribunal to
understand you, as an officer, as saying that there was no preparation
known to the officers in advance of those movements? Is that your
testimony as an officer?
MILCH: Pardon me, I did not understand you just now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You testified that those were all surprise
movements to the officers of the Luftwaffe. You were surprised at every
one of them, you said.
MILCH: I said, surprised by the outbreak of war, because at first it was
a question of Poland only. The other actions came very much later and
there was more time to prepare for this war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well now, relative to Poland, you do not deny that
Germany was well prepared for a war with Poland, or do you?
MILCH: The might of Germany, as compared with Poland, was powerful
enough. What I meant to imply when speaking of preparedness for war in
my testimony, was a degree of preparedness for entering a world war. For
that Germany was not prepared in 1939.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But she was prepared for the campaign that she
initiated, was she not?
MILCH: I would not say that; I would say that of course she had
armaments, in the same way as every other nation with armed forces. Our
armed forces were made ready against Poland and, to our own surprise,
proved sufficiently powerful to crush Poland in a very short time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Would you question or deny that, relative to the
other powers on the Continent of Europe, Germany was the best prepared
for war on the first day of September 1939?
MILCH: I believe that, taking it all round, the British Air Force at
that time was stronger than the German.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I asked you in reference to the Continental powers.
Do you question that Germany was far better prepared for war than any of
her immediate neighbors?
MILCH: I am convinced that France and Poland, according to their
respective strength, were just as well prepared for war as Germany. They
had the advantage of a longer time in which to arm, whereas Germany
could only begin to arm 5 years before the outbreak of the war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did you first meet Hermann Göring?
MILCH: I believe in the year 1928.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was he then? What position did he hold?
MILCH: He was then a member of the Reichstag.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what were you doing? What was your business?
MILCH: I was then Director of the German Lufthansa, a civil aviation
concern.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you have some discussions with Hermann Göring
at about that time as to the use of an Air Force if the Nazi Party came
to power?
MILCH: At that very early time, no.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did you first discuss that with Göring?
MILCH: I believe Göring spoke to me on this subject in 1932, when a plan
was formed to take over the government in 1932. It was believed already
at that time that the other parties would form a government together
with the National Socialists. On that occasion, I think, Göring did
speak of the possibility of Germany being freed from armament
restrictions, given a government at the helm which included the National
Socialists.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Following that you became a member of the Nazi
Party, did you not?
MILCH: I joined the Party only after 1933. When I again became an
officer my membership lapsed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You waited until after they had seized the power?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you recall a conversation that you had with
Hermann Göring on the 28th of January 1933?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And where did that take place?
MILCH: In my own residence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did he call upon you?
MILCH: I had guests in my house that evening, and he suddenly arrived
because he wanted to talk to me very urgently.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And will you relate to the Tribunal the
conversation that you had with Göring at that time?
MILCH: He told me that an agreement had now been reached with the other
parties in question for the formation of a coalition government with the
National Socialists. Reich President Von Hindenburg had agreed to the
appointment of Adolf Hitler as Chancellor in this government.
He asked me whether I would be ready to offer my collaboration in an Air
Ministry to be set up. I proposed two other persons instead of myself,
explaining that I did not wish to leave the Lufthansa. Göring rejected
them and insisted that I place myself at his disposal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you agree to do so?
MILCH: I asked for his permission to think the matter over, and I made
my consent dependent on whether Hitler would insist.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, what did Hitler do?
MILCH: I accepted on the 30th, after Hitler had told me once again that
he considered my technical knowledge and ability in the field of
aviation to be indispensable.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So, on the day that the Nazi Party came to power,
you took over the task of building a Nazi air force, did you not?
MILCH: No, not an air force. The immediate problem was the linking up of
all the various branches of aviation which existed at that time. For
instance, there was one civil aviation transport company, or there might
have been two. There were the aviation industries, the training schools
for civilian pilots, the meteorological service, and I believe there
were several research institutes. That, I think, covers the entire field
of aviation of that time—but it had nothing to do with an air force.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Perhaps, I will say, you took over the task of
making Germany predominant in the air?
MILCH: No, I cannot agree with that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Put it in your own way. Tell us what you did; what
your object was in taking over this new task.
MILCH: My first task was to develop the various branches in order to
build up a large air transport system.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You then made visits to France and England, and on
your return reported to Hitler personally, did you not?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When you returned from England, did you warn Hitler
against the activities of Ribbentrop?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did you tell Hitler about the activities of
Ribbentrop in England?
MILCH: That I had gained the impression in England that Von Ribbentrop
was not _persona grata_.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, when you were interrogated before, didn’t you
state after your capture that you told Hitler that if he did not get rid
of Ribbentrop soon he was going to have trouble with England? Is that
not what you told Hitler in substance?
MILCH: I cannot now remember the exact words.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But is that not the sense of it?
MILCH: I was of the opinion that another man should be sent to England
to bring about mutual understanding as to policy, in accordance with the
wish so often expressed by Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Before you talked with Hitler about that, you had
discussed it with Göring, had you not?
MILCH: With whom?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Göring.
MILCH: About the journey? Or about what?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: About Ribbentrop.
MILCH: No, I did not discuss him with the Reich Marshal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There came a time when some engineers were sent to
Russia, were they not, to inspect the air construction there, factories,
facilities, and that sort of thing?
MILCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This was a group of engineers, and you had
something to do with sending them there, did you not?
MILCH: No, I had nothing to do with that group. At that time technical
research was not under my control.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Under whose orders were they?
MILCH: Under General Udet, who, in turn, was under the Reich Marshal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And when they came back, you learned that they had
reported that Russia had greater capacity for building airplane engines
than all six of the German factories, did you not?
MILCH: Yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What order did Göring give about that information
being made available even to the Führer?
MILCH: Göring did not believe the information at that time. I know that
from the words of General Udet.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Is it not a fact that you stated to the
interrogators before that Göring called these experts defeatists,
forbade them to repeat that information to anybody, and threatened them
with the concentration camp if they repeated that information? Did you
say that or didn’t you?
MILCH: I never said it in that form.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, use your own words and tell us just what
Göring said on that subject.
MILCH: At a considerably later date, when the question of American
armament figures came up, the Reich Marshal said to me, “Now, you too
are going to turn defeatist and believe these large figures.” I told him
then that I did indeed believe these figures; but that had nothing to do
with the Russian matter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were those Russian figures ever reported to Hitler,
to the Reichstag or in any way made public to the German people?
MILCH: The Russian figures? That I cannot say. I had nothing to do with
the matter. The American figures were undoubtedly submitted to Hitler,
but Hitler did not believe them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You testified on Friday, I believe, that you knew
that the commencement of the war with Russia would mean the annihilation
of Germany. I remind you of that, and that is correct, is it not?
MILCH: Not the destruction—the defeat. I think I said annihilation or
defeat.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You went to Reich Marshal Göring to protest against
the entrance into the Russian war, is that right?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did Göring agree with you that it would end in
the defeat of Germany?
MILCH: No, he did not agree. He had to be extremely cautious in his
statements in deference to his relations with Hitler. I told him the
cause for Germany’s difficulties and he nodded. His words gave me the
impression that he had already put the same arguments to Hitler, and
that he had been unsuccessful.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In other words, he agreed with you that it would
end with the defeat of Germany, but did not want it said to Hitler, is
that right?
MILCH: No, I would not go as far as that. When I said that this meant
the defeat of Germany, I was voicing the conclusion reached by me. He
merely agreed that this war should be avoided at all costs and that it
would prove a misfortune for Germany. That was the way he put it; he did
not use the word “defeat” in this connection.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was it mentioned by you?
MILCH: I mentioned that to open a second front against so strong an
enemy would mean the defeat of Germany.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did he disagree with you about that? Did he
take issue with you about that?
MILCH: No, he did not argue about it, he only declared himself opposed
to taking on anything else, as he considered it impossible to do so;
what we thought would not make the slightest difference and it would
only give Hitler the impression that we in the Luftwaffe were
defeatists.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you did not attempt any further to convey the
information, from which you thought Germany would be defeated if she
entered into war with Russia, to Hitler or to any other officer of the
High Command?
MILCH: It was impossible for me to do so. I could not act against the
order of my superior officer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Of the Reich Marshal?
MILCH: Yes, of the Reich Marshal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And, so far as you know, after his talk with you he
never conveyed the information to Hitler that it was your opinion that
the war would end in disaster?
MILCH: I had the impression that he had previously discussed the subject
with Hitler but without any degree of success, because with Hitler that
was impossible.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, but you had been abroad for Hitler and
reported to him and he apparently had confidence in you, and I am asking
you if Hermann Göring ever reported to Hitler that you, from your
information, felt that it was a disaster to go into that war?
MILCH: My trips were not made at Hitler’s order. They were made in
response to invitations from foreign governments to the Luftwaffe and at
the order of the Reich Marshal. It was only because I was aware of the
importance of these trips and because I incidentally heard political
statements—in spite of my reluctance at the time, since they did not
concern me as a soldier—that I thought it my duty to report personally
to Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did Göring direct you to do that?
MILCH: To go to Hitler? Yes, Göring told Hitler about it and Hitler
ordered me to report to him. I myself did not say, “I am now going to
see Hitler,” but I received an order to that effect from Hitler himself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he did not send you to Hitler until he knew
what you were going to report?
MILCH: No, he himself had . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So he did know?
MILCH: He himself had no cognizance of the subject. He had no time to
receive me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Göring had no time to receive you?
MILCH: No. Göring at that time had many other matters on hand and he did
not want to hear about these things.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So he left that to Hitler, who was not busy, I take
it. Is that true?
MILCH: Hitler was interested in the matter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you told us in interrogations that Göring
was not very industrious. Is that correct?
MILCH: I should be very reluctant to answer that question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Very well, I withdraw it. It was not a kindly
question to begin with. When you found that Germany was going into a war
which you, an informed officer, considered a disaster, did you resign?
MILCH: Resign? What from?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Resign your commission as an officer or take any
other steps to protest?
MILCH: No, that was absolutely impossible. There was an order which
ruled it impossible.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And who gave that order?
MILCH: Hitler himself.
MR, JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you said you had experienced this yourself.
MILCH: Not only in my own case. The order applied generally.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You said on Friday that you experienced it
yourself, that you could not resign.
MILCH: No; one could not resign.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you try it at any time?
MILCH: I frequently applied for my discharge in peacetime. My
resignation, however, was not accepted, the reason given being that I
had no right to ask for it, but that I would be told by higher
authorities when I had to go. During the war I never applied for my
discharge, because as a soldier in wartime I could not apply for it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not have some talk with Göring at one time
about retiring from your position, in which he not only forbade you to
leave, but also told you there would be no use in feigning ill health?
MILCH: Yes. There was no possibility of giving this as the reason unless
one was really ill. When retiring from a high position it had been
customary in the past to plead ill health. Now this was no longer
possible.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he did suggest to you in that discussion one
way out, did he not?
MILCH: No, he did not suggest a way out, but I did.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did you suggest? What talk did you have about
suicide? Did Göring tell you that the only way you could get out was to
commit suicide?
MILCH: That would have been the only possible way out.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, did Göring tell you that?
MILCH: No, I said that; not he.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he did not disagree with you, I take it.
MILCH: No. He did not care if I did or not.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you have the regulations with you, which you
say were printed for the information of every soldier, about
international law and regulations. You have them with you this morning?
MILCH: I have them with me; the regulations are contained in my service
book, the same as for every soldier.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You gave us a little information about that, but I
would like you to get that out and give us exactly the text of those
instructions or regulations, which you say reflect international law as
you understood it.
MILCH: Do you want me to read it out now? The quotation . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Not too fast.
MILCH: No.
“Ten Commandments for the Conduct of the German Soldier in War.
“1. The German soldier fights chivalrously for the victory of
his people. Cruelty and needless destruction are unworthy of
him.
“2. The fighter must wear a uniform, or else he must be provided
with insignia visible from a good distance. Fighting in civilian
clothes without such insignia is prohibited.
“3. No enemy once he has surrendered shall be killed, not even a
partisan or a spy. The courts will administer the just
punishment.
“4. Prisoners of war must not be maltreated or insulted.
Weapons, plans and notes are to be taken from them. Apart from
these, none of their possessions may be taken from them.
“5. Dum-dum bullets are prohibited. Bullets may not be
transformed into dum-dum bullets.
“6. The Red Cross is inviolable. Wounded enemies must be treated
humanely. Medical orderlies and chaplains must not be hindered
in the performance of their medical and spiritual functions.
“7. The civilian population is inviolable. The soldier must not
plunder or wantonly destroy. Historical monuments and buildings
dedicated to religious service, art, science, or charity must be
treated with special care. Personal services and services in
kind shall only be required of the civilian population against
compensation, and if ordered by the superior officer.
“8. Neutral territory must not be militarily involved by
trespassing, by planes flying over it, or by gunfire.
“9. If a German soldier is captured, he must state his name and
rank when questioned. Under no circumstances may he say to what
unit he belongs, or speak about military, political, or economic
conditions on the German side, neither may he allow himself to
be induced to do so by threats or promises.
“10. Any contravention of these orders while on active service
is punishable. Breaches by the enemy of the rules listed under 1
to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are permissible only by order
of the higher commanders.”
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now that, as you understand it, is the military law
conforming with international law, which was promulgated for the
governance of the troops in the field?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you understood, and it was generally understood
in the German Army, that that was international law, was it not?
MILCH: Every soldier could not help knowing that these were the German
regulations because they were pasted on the first sheet of the pay book,
issued to every soldier, and which he had to carry on him. The common
soldier, of course, did not know that they represented international
law.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The higher commanders, like yourself did, didn’t
they?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That represented your understanding and
interpretation of your duties and obligations as honorable men in
combat?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, did you participate in the activities of
Hermann Göring in collecting the art treasures of France and other
occupied territories?
MILCH: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you participate in the removal of the civilian
population for forced labor?
MILCH: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You know that was done, do you not?
MILCH: I did not know that the workers who came from foreign countries
had been deported; we were told that they had been recruited on a
voluntary basis. In the case of France, I know that up to a certain date
the French had wanted to come, but after that date they no longer wanted
to come, and that the French Government itself had issued directives to
deal with this.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Aside from that, then, you did not know anything
about involuntary or forced labor in Germany? Is that your testimony?
MILCH: No. I only knew that . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Tell us what you did know about it and what you did
about it.
MILCH: I knew that those people had been recruited and that they had
come voluntarily. I knew that many of them were very satisfied, but as
time went on and the German military situation deteriorated, discontent
began to set in among these foreign workers, although, according to the
information which reached my ears, only a small group was affected. I
would add that in a general way, we ascribed this ill feeling to the
fact that the food for these people was not everything they could wish;
consequently, sundry organizations, with Speer’s ministry at the head,
made efforts to improve their living conditions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have not yet answered my question. Did you know
that forced labor was being brought from occupied territories and
compelled to work in German industry? Did you know it? Answer that “yes”
or “no.”
MILCH: I knew that only in the end Frenchmen were forced by their own
French Government to come.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that prisoners of war were forced to
work in the airplane industry, and were actually forced to man guns? Did
you know that?
MILCH: I did hear about it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you heard about it from your fellow officers,
did you not?
MILCH: At the moment I cannot say from whom I heard it. I believe there
was a group which I think was called “Volunteers.” As far as I know it
was recruited on a voluntary basis from among those prisoners of war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you learn about—even if you did not
participate in it—the plan for the collection of art treasures from the
occupied countries?
MILCH: No. I knew nothing of this plan as it then existed. I first heard
about it here in Nuremberg through some of the witnesses.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now I want to ask you some questions about certain
exhibits; I refer to Document Number 343-PS, Exhibit USA-463. I will ask
to have that exhibit shown to you.
[_Document 343-PS was submitted to the witness._]
MILCH: These letters are signed by me and they are also written on my
stationery. They must have been drafted by the Medical Inspection
department. As I said a few days ago, I no longer remember the contents.
I should only like to say that the answers were drafted in such a way as
not to lead us, the Air Force, into any difficulties with Herr Himmler.
For instance, I never read the statements made by Dr. Rascher and Dr.
Romberg. They were read by the Medical Inspectorate. In this connection
I acted, so to speak, as postman between the SS and our Medical
Inspection department.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When you testified, on interrogation, you had no
recollection of these letters; but on Friday you testified that you made
some alterations in one of them before it went out. Do you want to tell
us what that alteration was?
MILCH: Yes, some of these letters were submitted to me during my
interrogation and it was then that I first remembered it. The changes
which I made were merely a matter of courtesy in style, in view of Herr
Himmler’s extreme susceptibility. I do not think that either of these
two letters contains the alteration; that, I believe, was in another
letter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It was the other letter in which there was a
change, Number 1607?
MILCH: I believe so, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, in your examination, your interrogation, you
gave a reason why these were brought to you for signature instead of
being signed by the bureau chiefs. Do you remember what that reason was?
MILCH: Yes. I had the impression that the Medical Inspector did not wish
to address his refusal to Himmler because he was afraid; whereas Himmler
had written to me because he always wrote only either to the Reich
Marshal or to me, as he was unacquainted with the organization of the
Luftwaffe in this particular sphere, for the Medical Inspector was not
subordinate to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I understand from your interrogation that you
gave as the reason why these letters were brought to you for signature,
that your office was in fear of Himmler and did not want to take the
responsibility of writing a letter to him, is that right?
MILCH: Not my office, but I think the Medical Inspection department did
not wish to place themselves in an awkward position as concerns Himmler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I think you also said that the officials of
that department were afraid of the SS.
MILCH: That is what I wished to express.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were they engaged in any illegal conduct or any
activity against the government?
MILCH: I did not understand that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were those people who were afraid . . .
MILCH: Who? The Medical Inspection department? No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They were responsible officials doing their duty,
as far as you know, is that right?
MILCH: Yes, Mr. Justice; but one must bear in mind the things which had
come to pass during the war.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is exactly what I want you to think about and
tell about. Why were these people, who were performing their duties in a
government office, afraid of Himmler or afraid of the SS? Explain that
situation to us.
MILCH: Not afraid of the SS as such, but of the secret police. It was
not easy for any of us. We were all convinced that we were being
constantly watched, no matter how high our rank. There was probably not
a single person concerning whom a dossier was not kept, and many people
were subsequently brought to trial as a result of these records. The
ensuing difficulties did not affect only these people or other people or
me personally; they included everybody right up to the Reich Marshal,
who also was affected by them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So you mean that from the Reich Marshal right down
to the humblest citizen, there was fear of Heinrich Himmler and his
organization?
MILCH: Well, the degree of fear may have varied. It was perhaps not so
great among those in the highest and in the lowest positions. But things
were far more difficult in the intermediate grades, since it was quite
clear that the intermediate grades criticized everything that occurred
and these criticisms were not tolerated by the authorities at the top.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I take it, from your testimony, that the reputation
of the Gestapo was pretty well understood in Germany.
MILCH: Particularly so in the later war years. I could not say how far
this feeling was justified, but at all events the feeling was there.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I think you also testified that some high
military authorities did resign. I call your attention to your testimony
in your interrogation by us about Von Fritsch and Beck. They resigned,
didn’t they?
MILCH: No, they did not resign. They were removed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They were thrown out, is that it?
MILCH: Yes. They were told they were no longer needed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understood you to testify in your interrogation
that even the generals did not dare utter an opinion after those two
left.
MILCH: No, I never put it like that. I cannot remember what I said. I
should be grateful if I could see the minutes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I have them. I will ask you if you were not
asked these questions and gave these answers:
“Question: From your knowledge of discussions in army circles
among the Air Force and the General Staff people whom you knew,
could you form any opinion as to their attitude for the
beginning of war? Would they share your view?”
The minutes show that you answered:
“All officers agreed with me unanimously. All the higher
officers agreed with me. A long time ago, in 1937, I talked to
Field Marshal Von Blomberg about the danger of a war because of
the careless policy of our statesmen. At that time we feared
that England or France would not tolerate that policy in the
long run. On the 1st of November 1937, I had a long discussion
with Von Blomberg about this matter, and he was of the same
opinion.”
MILCH: Yes, I remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is true? You were then asked this question:
“Is it true that after General Fritsch and General Beck left
their offices, the positions in the Army were subordinated to
the political personalities?”
MILCH: No, they had always been subordinate. The Army was always changed
in this respect. The head of the State was at the same time the Supreme
Commander.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At the time you were interrogated, your answer was
this:
“Yes, because Hitler took over personally the Supreme Command of
the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force. That was the position
that was held by Von Blomberg before. Blomberg was in a position
to resist Hitler, and he had done so very often, and Hitler
respected him and listened to his advice. Blomberg was the only
elderly soldier who was clever enough to reconcile military and
political questions. This resistance . . .”
MILCH: Yes, that was my conviction.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: [_Continuing._] “. . .This resistance could
not be kept up by the men around Hitler later on. They were too
weak for that. That is probably why he chose them.”
Is that true?
MILCH: That is my opinion.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: [_Continuing._] “Question: Did the generals
with whom you associated not feel, even before 1939, that the
course of action which was being taken by Hitler would be likely
to result in a war?
“Answer: Those who were able to think in foreign political
terms, yes; but they had to be very cautious about it, because
they could not utter any opinion; they dared not utter any
opinion.”
Is that right?
MILCH: Correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And of what were the high generals in command of
the Army afraid, that they did not utter an opinion?
MILCH: The generals would not have had a chance to report anything to
Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who would have done anything about it? There were
many generals and only one Hitler. Who was going to carry out any orders
against them?
MILCH: It was just not possible. Hitler was so powerful that he just
turned down other people’s objections or else refused to listen to them
at all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Hitler had the SS, didn’t he, and Himmler and
Kaltenbrunner?
MILCH: Yes, he had them as well. In addition he had the entire Wehrmacht
who had sworn an oath of allegiance to him.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you said in your interrogation that after
the 5th of March 1943, Hitler was no longer normal. Did you make that
statement?
MILCH: I said that, in my opinion, the Hitler of the later years was not
the Hitler of the early period from 1933 until the outbreak of war, and
that after the campaign against France a change came over him. I formed
this opinion, which was a purely private one, because what he did
afterwards was diametrically opposed to what he had previously taught;
and that I could not consider normal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you want us to understand that Göring continued
to act as second man in the Reich and to take the orders from an
abnormal man from that period on? Is that your story?
MILCH: The abnormality was not such that one could say, “this man is out
of his senses,” or, “this man is insane”; it would not have to reach
that stage. It often happens that abnormalities are such that they
escape both the public and the nearest associates. I believe that a
doctor would be better able to give information on that subject. I
talked to medical men about it at the time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it was their opinion that he was abnormal?
MILCH: That there was a possibility of abnormality was admitted by a
doctor whom I knew well, personally.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: A doctor of repute in Germany?
MILCH: No, he is not very well known. He never told anybody else. It
would not have been wise to do so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If he had, he would have been put in a
concentration camp, I suppose?
MILCH: Or worse.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And if you had expressed your opinion that he was
abnormal, you probably would have been put there also, would you not?
MILCH: I would have been shot immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON; So you never dared to tell your superior, Göring,
your opinion about Hitler?
MILCH: I only once had an opportunity of stating my views about the war
to Hitler. That was the only time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You informed Göring of your opinion?
MILCH: I talked to Göring. What I have just mentioned was a conversation
I had with Hitler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not—I think you misunderstood me—you
do not mean that you informed Hitler that you considered him abnormal; I
am sure you do not mean that.
MILCH: No, I did not tell Göring that either.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is what I said. You knew, did you not, that
Göring, who was your immediate superior, was issuing the anti-Jewish
decrees of the Reich Government?
MILCH: No, I did not know that. As far as I know, they emanated from a
different office, from . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Didn’t you know that the decrees which excluded
Jews and half-Jews from holding posts were issued by Göring?
MILCH: No, I did not know that. As far as I know, these regulations
emanated from the Ministry of the Interior, which also would have been
the proper department to deal with them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: As a matter of fact, did you not have to take
certain proceedings to avoid the effect of those decrees yourself?
MILCH: No. I know what you mean. That was a question that had been
cleared long ago.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How long before that was it cleared?
MILCH: As far as I know, in 1933.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: 1933, just after the Nazis came to power?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And at that time Göring had you—we will have no
misunderstanding about this—Göring made you what you call a full Aryan;
was that it?
MILCH: I do not think he made me one; I was one.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, he had it established, let us say?
MILCH: He had helped me in clearing up this question, which was not
clear.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is, your mother’s husband was a Jew; is that
correct?
MILCH: It was not said so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You had to demonstrate that none of your ancestry
was Jewish; is that correct?
MILCH: Yes; everybody had to do that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in your case that involved your father, your
alleged father; is that correct?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you certainly were informed from the very
beginning of the attitude of the Nazi Party to Jews, were you not?
MILCH: No, I was not informed. Everybody had to submit his papers, and
the certificate of one of my grandparents could not be found.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you were never required to do that under the
Weimar Republic?
MILCH: No, there was no such question at that time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew that this whole question was raised by
the Nazi Party, of which you became a member in 1933; in other words at
about the time this happened. Is that right?
MILCH: I had applied for membership earlier, before this question came
up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did you apply for membership?
MILCH: I do not know exactly—I think in March or April.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you had to clear up this question before you
could become a member; wasn’t that the point?
MILCH: That had been cleared up in the meantime. I cannot say exactly
when.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In 1933 you became aware of the concentration camp,
the first one?
MILCH: Yes, I believe in 1933 there was a public announcement about it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And later, as I understand you, you heard so many
rumors about concentration camps, that you thought the matter ought to
be investigated; that you ought to go there and see?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was it that these rumors became so persistent
that you thought the matter should be investigated?
MILCH: That must have been at the end of 1934 and in the spring of 1935,
because, if I remember correctly, I was in Dachau in the spring of 1935.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those rumors persisted throughout the entire
period until the collapse of Germany, didn’t they?
MILCH: Those rumors which led me to ask to visit Dachau were really only
current in the circle of the higher officers, who passed them on to me.
I had little contact with other circles; I cannot say to what extent the
thing was generally discussed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, among the higher officers with whom you
associated, the rumor went about that these concentration camps were the
scene of atrocities as early as 1935. I understood you to say that; am I
correct?
MILCH: No, not exactly. I said there . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, now you tell us what it was that you went to
investigate.
MILCH: I was quite unable to conduct any investigation; all I could do
was to see for myself—in order to dispel the many rumors—whether it
was true that many people were shut up there who should not have been
there at all, innocent people who were brought there for political
reasons only. At that time there was much talk about many members of the
so-called “Reaction” having been sent there. Some officers were very
concerned about this, and I told them that I would go and see for myself
to try to gain a personal insight.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not need to go to Dachau to find that out,
did you? You could have asked Göring; didn’t you know that?
MILCH: To go where?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you ever ask Göring who were these people who
were sent there?
MILCH: No. I did not talk to Göring about that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not know that Göring publicly said that
political enemies of the regime were going to be sent there; that was
what they were founded for; did you know that?
MILCH: I cannot say I ever heard that that had actually been said, but
that was what I surmised at the time, and I wanted to see for myself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you found nobody there except criminals?
MILCH: All that I was shown were people who had committed crimes or
rather serious offenses. The only political prisoners I saw were people
who had taken part in the Röhm Putsch. Whether there were others, I am
unable to say, because I cannot swear that I saw the entire camp. But we
saw all we asked to see. We said, “Now I would like to see this, or
that,” and the guide took us there.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: By whose authority did you get into the
concentration camp for an examination?
MILCH; Himmler’s.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who asked Himmler if you could go?
MILCH: I do not understand.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did Göring know that you were making the trip?
MILCH: I do not think so. I did not make a special trip. I had some
business in southern Germany in my military capacity, and I set aside
one morning for this purpose.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There were people in the concentration camp who had
to do with the Röhm Putsch, as you call it?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many were there who had to do with that?
MILCH: I cannot say exactly. As far as I remember now, I should say that
altogether I saw about four or five hundred people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Four to five hundred people; and how many were
killed?
MILCH: Well, I could not be too sure about this figure, there might
easily have been 700. I estimate it at around that figure.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many people were killed in the Röhm Putsch?
MILCH: I can only give the figure which Hitler publicly stated in the
Reichstag; I cannot say from memory. I may be right if I said the number
ranged between 100 and 200.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now why were you so concerned about the
concentration camps? Did you have any official responsibility for them?
MILCH: No, I had no responsibility whatsoever; but there was so much
talk about them at the time that I decided I would find out for myself.
I knew how many questions would be asked me, and I would not be able to
answer them, so I said I would go there and see for myself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Germany had ordinary prisons for criminal
prisoners, had she not?
MILCH: Of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And those prisons had sufficed for a good many
years to take care of the criminal population, had they not?
MILCH: I could not say what their purpose was.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the concentration camp was something new that
came in after 1933?
MILCH: Yes. It is true I never heard of anything like that in Germany
before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you see any Jews in the concentration camp when
you inspected it?
MILCH: Yes; there was one hut which contained Jews, but they all were
under heavy sentences for economic misdemeanors and crimes, such as
forging documents, and so on. We passed right through, and each one told
us, without even being asked, what his sentence was and the reason for
it, and not one of them told us that he was there for political reasons.
The only political prisoners were the SA men.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You could not find a single prisoner there who
claimed he was innocent of a crime?
MILCH: No; everyone with whom we spoke related his case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who accompanied you on that trip?
MILCH: As far as I remember, General Weber, who at that time was Chief
of the General Staff. I believe also General Udet and several other
gentlemen. But at the moment I do not remember who they were.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And who showed you through the concentration camp?
Who guided you?
MILCH: I cannot recollect his name. It was one of the officials of the
SD. I assume it was the commander of the camp himself, but I do not know
his name.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And who was running the concentration camp? What
organization was in charge of it?
MILCH: I could not say, but I presume it was one of Himmler’s offices.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You have said that the march into the Rhineland was
a great surprise to you?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where were you on your leave when this occurred?
MILCH: I was on winter leave in the mountains, abroad.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In Norway?
MILCH: No, no.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In which country?
MILCH: I was in the Alps; I believe it was Southern Tyrol, which, at
that time, was Italy.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not hear of a meeting the minutes of which
are in evidence here as Exhibit GB-160 (Document Number EC-405),
concerning the Reich Defense Council meeting held on the 26th of June
1935, some nine months before the occupation of the Rhineland?
MILCH: I cannot say whether I was present. I can no longer remember.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There were, according to the evidence, 24 members
of the Wehrmacht and five members of the Luftwaffe present, as well as
24 State and Party officials. Were you one of those present at that
conference at which this discussion took place?
MILCH: May I ask again for the date?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The 26th of June 1935.
MILCH: I cannot remember. I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you ever learn of that meeting?
MILCH: At the moment I really cannot remember. What is supposed to have
been said at that meeting?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That the preparations for the occupation of the
Rhineland were to be kept secret, and the plan was made to invade the
Rhineland. Did you never learn of that meeting?
MILCH: I cannot remember that. I do not think I was present.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If your Honors please, the usual time for
adjournment is here. I intend to take up a different subject involving
some documents. It might be a convenient time to adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
[_The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours._]
_Afternoon Session_
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I want to ask you some questions regarding your
duties and activities on the Central Planning Board. You were a member
of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what was the period of your membership?
MILCH: From the beginning—I believe that was in the year 1941 or
1942—until the end.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Members of that Board, in addition to yourself,
were the Defendant Speer?
MILCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Defendant Funk?
MILCH: Yes, but only later.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When did he come on the Board?
MILCH: At the moment when a large part of the civil production was
turned over to the Speer Ministry, the Ministry for Armament.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Körner? Körner was a member of the Board?
MILCH: Körner? Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was Dr. Sauer?
MILCH: Sauer was an official in the Speer Ministry, but he did not
belong to the Central Planning Board.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But he did keep some of the minutes, did he not?
MILCH: No; I think he did not keep them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Sauckel frequently attended the meetings, did he
not?
MILCH: Not frequently, but occasionally.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What were the functions of the Central Planning
Board?
MILCH: The distribution of raw materials to the various groups which
held quotas, such as the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, and for civilian
requirements for various branches such as industry, mining, industrial
and private building, _et cetera_.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And labor?
MILCH: Pardon me, labor? We did not have to distribute that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: It had nothing to do with labor? Do I understand
you correctly?
MILCH: We could make suggestions, but not the distribution.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean by that, not the distribution amongst
different industries which were competing to obtain labor?
MILCH: That was a point which concerned Armaments more than the Central
Planning Board.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that Speer turned over to the United
States all of his personal papers and records, including the minutes of
this Central Planning Board?
MILCH: I did not know that; I hear it now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask that the minutes, volumes of minutes
which constitute U.S. Document R-124, offered in evidence as French
Exhibit Number RF-30, be made available for examination by the witness
in the original German; I shall ask you some questions about it.
MILCH: Yes.
[_Document R-124 was submitted to the witness._]
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: If you will point out to the witness Page 1059,
Line 22.
This, Witness, purports to be the minutes of Conference Number 21 of the
Central Planning Board, held on the 30th of October 1942 at the Reich
Ministry of Armament and Munitions, and the minutes show you to have
been present. Do you recall being there at that meeting?
MILCH: In that one sentence, I cannot see it, but I can well assume it.
Yes. I see here in the minutes that my name is frequently mentioned.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention—Page 1059, Line 22−to
the following entry and ask you if this refreshes your recollection
about the functions of that Board:
“Speer: The question of slackers is another point to be dealt
with. Ley has ascertained that the number of people reporting
sick decreased to one-fourth or one-fifth where there are
factory doctors and the workers are examined by them. SS and
Police could go ahead with the job and put those known as
slackers into undertakings run by concentration camps. There is
no other choice. Let it happen a few times, and the news will go
round.”
Were you not concerned with the discussion of the labor situation in
that conference, and does that not refresh your recollection as to the
dealing with the labor question?
MILCH: I do recall that the question of slackers as a whole was
discussed. It was rather a question of slackers, workers, people, who
while not normally employed in peacetime, as a result of the total
mobilization of manpower, were compelled to work during the war. Among
these people, who did not belong to the ranks of the workers, I repeat
that there were some slackers who upset the good spirit of the workers.
It was those people we had in mind.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Those were to be sent to concentration camps, as
you know?
MILCH: Yes, I was told that. But no decision was arrived at. Moreover,
it was not for us to send anybody to a concentration camp.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, was it not said that there was nothing to be
said against the SS taking them over? You knew that the SS was running
the concentration camps, did you not?
MILCH: Yes, of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And, therefore, you knew that turning them over to
the SS and sending them to the concentration camps was a means of
forcing them to produce more goods, was it not?
MILCH: Yes, of course, these people should be forced to do so. They were
Germans who refused to do their duty to their country.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did this apply only to Germans?
MILCH: As far as I know this applied to Germans only. By slackers—they
were also called casual workers—was meant only those people who went
from place to place, who practically every week changed their job and
who were reported to us mainly by the representatives of our own
workers. Our own workers complained that these people availed themselves
of all privileges as to food, _et cetera_, while they did not do
anything, that they always gave up their jobs soon, and that every
establishment was glad to get rid of them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And got rid of them by sending them to the
concentration camps under the SS?
MILCH: They had to be taught, and we were told that if these people had
their additional—not their basic—rations made dependent on their
output, as was the case in the concentration camps, they would very
quickly learn.
I do, however, remember that it was proposed to limit this treatment to
2 or 3 months, after which they would be brought back, and if they had
learned their lesson they would be given full freedom again.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, did you have anything to do on the Central
Planning Board with the work of prisoners of war?
MILCH: No; I do not think so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I ask that you be shown the 22d conference of
the Central Planning Board minutes of the meeting held on the 2d of
November 1942, Page 1042, at Line 24, which quotes you. The English
translation is on Page 27.