The testimony of Charles Douglas Givens was taken at 9 a.m., on April
8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. GIVENS. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?
Mr. GIVENS. Charles Douglas Givens.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Givens?
Mr. GIVENS. I live at 4208 First Avenue.
Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. GIVENS. 38.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Family?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Givens?
Mr. GIVENS. Kemp, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?
Mr. GIVENS. All my life except I was in the Armed Forces during World
War II, in the Navy.
Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy?
Mr. GIVENS. About 2 years.
Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a little. Did you go to high school before
you went in the Navy?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?
Mr. GIVENS. Twelfth grade.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get through the 12th?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You got up to the 12th grade?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went to work.
Mr. BELIN. Doing what?
Mr. GIVENS. SMU.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. GIVENS. SMU.
Mr. BELIN. SMU?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do out there?
Mr. GIVENS. I worked in the kitchen.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?
Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about 2 years.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in the service.
Mr. BELIN. You went in the service for a couple of years?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with most of your time in the service?
Mr. GIVENS. I was in the Steward Mate Branch.
Mr. BELIN. Were you honorably discharged?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of the service?
Mr. GIVENS. I went back to work.
Mr. BELIN. At SMU?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where?
Mr. GIVENS. I worked at Central Lumber Co.
Mr. BELIN. Doing what there?
Mr. GIVENS. I was a truck helper; helper on the truck.
Mr. BELIN. You were helper on a truck?
Mr. GIVENS. Delivering lumber; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?
Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about a year and a half, I guess.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. GIVENS. One time I got into a little difficulty. Got in a little
trouble.
Mr. BELIN. You got in a little trouble?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you were not working for a while?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. About how long was that?
Mr. GIVENS. About 13 months.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I came back and I worked for a construction company,
and then after that I got this job down here at the depository.
Mr. BELIN. At the School Book Depository?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there?
Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What happened then?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff
during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he
calls you back.
Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack
season?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know,
don't have any special job.
Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we
fill orders. We work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We
have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more
than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth
floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any
one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?
Mr. GIVENS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963,
also?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?
Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the
floor.
Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?
Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. We were working on the west end.
Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that
day?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?
Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with him at all?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I talked to him once in a while. I mean, just like
about filling orders or something like that. Sometimes I check and he
was filling orders and he make a mistake, and I call him and get the
book right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What
you said and what he said?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He
never had too much to say.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about
his family, or baseball, or anything?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Ever talk to you about any politics?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you talked to him about correcting an order, what did
you say and what did he say?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just tell him he had the wrong book.
Mr. BELIN. What would he say?
Mr. GIVENS. He said, "Okay," and got the record.
Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald?
Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee.
Mr. BELIN. What did he call you?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call
me anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did he make mistakes often?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you
see him at all there or not?
Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it?
Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by.
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. About what time was that?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were
you?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all?
Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth
floor?
Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. At 8 o'clock?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8
o'clock?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't.
Mr. BELIN. How did you get up to the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. On the elevator.
Mr. BELIN. The east or the west one? The west one is the one that would
be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the
Houston Street.
Mr. GIVENS. We went up on the east one.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took the east one rather than
the west one?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I don't know whether you call it a particular reason,
but on the west, you have double gates on that.
Mr. BELIN. Was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the
east elevator up?
Mr. GIVENS. It was that morning, yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. It was that morning around 8 o'clock?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first?
Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he?
Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders.
Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him at all?
Mr. GIVENS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and
pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing
he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the
whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work.
Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the
floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?
Mr. GIVENS. Next?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way
downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the
fifth floor.
I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket
pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket
with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth
floor in that vicinity, coming from that way.
Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way?
Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from.
Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you saw
him on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the
elevator.
Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the
sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to me.
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but
perhaps we can use another plan here to help us.
Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street
side, and you can see the arrow pointing north.
This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that
there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows,
right?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now
did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you
standing near any of these windows?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be
somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct?
Mr. GIVENS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call the
south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front
part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to
the back of the east elevator, is that about right?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating].
Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well, it
would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that building,
is that right?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that
about right?
Mr. GIVENS. That is about right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons
stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked,
because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and
ran it down that side.
Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth
floor where you were working and put it there?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window.
Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the
other side of the window?
Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the
elevators.
Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the
east wall that he was walking along, or what?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles.
Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front
of him? Were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you
remember?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there.
Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the
window itself?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that
southeast corner?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see
him walking in?
Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators.
Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book
cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling
orders?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible.
Mr. BELIN. It was possible?
Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to?
Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was
getting ready to get on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going
downstairs?"
Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you?