Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Of the terminal?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the
Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I
do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business.
Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee,
and one was a T. & P. employee.
Mr. STERN. Could you give me their full names?
Mr. HOLLAND. Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad.
Mr. STERN. You don't know the names of those particular men?
Mr. HOLLAND. No; I don't.
Mr. STERN. Did you see them here today?
Mr. HOLLAND. I know the policemen talked to them and got identification
from them.
Mr. STERN. Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen
that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office just
before----
Mr. HOLLAND. No; neither one of those.
Mr. STERN. Did you recognize either of those two men?
Mr. HOLLAND. One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an
electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver.
Mr. STERN. The electrician, do you know his name?
Mr. HOLLAND. Frank Reilly.
Mr. STERN. There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't
notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you.
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I
guess--Davey Cowzert was up there, too.
Mr. STERN. But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize
either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as
being people who were on the overpass that day?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. All right.
Mr. HOLLAND. There was two people I did recognize and that was the
cabdriver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up
there with me.
Mr. STERN. You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was
on the triple overpass at the time?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else.
Mr. HOLLAND. Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert.
Mr. STERN. Is he also an employee?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; he is.
Mr. STERN. Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time
the Presidential motorcade----
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Came into view?
Mr. HOLLAND. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around
the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me--why in the
world--he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around
the fence to what was happening.
Mr. STERN. Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police
officers were on the overpass at the time?
Mr. HOLLAND. There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that
time.
Mr. STERN. Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time the
Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on
the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following
employees of the Terminal Co.: Yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr.
Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other
man?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two
employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago,
by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I
can't remember who it was or their names, because----
Mr. STERN. Before the motorcade started?
Mr. HOLLAND. Before the motorcade started.
Mr. STERN. These were people you recognized as employees?
Mr. HOLLAND. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I
think he was asking for credentials.
Mr. STERN. The uniformed policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep
them----
Mr. STERN. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being
terminal or railroad employees?
Mr. HOLLAND. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose
for going up there.
Mr. STERN. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's
motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass
that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad
employees, or as a policeman?
Mr. HOLLAND. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a
few came up there right in the last moments.
Mr. STERN. There were? Tell us about that.
Mr. HOLLAND. That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people
up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few
minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their
identification, and----
Mr. STERN. Is this just about the time of the motorcade?
Mr. HOLLAND. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there
was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself.
Mr. STERN. Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the
police?
Mr. HOLLAND. He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass.
Mr. STERN. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked
by this policeman for identification?
Mr. HOLLAND. I think everyone was checked by some person.
Mr. STERN. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the
overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18
people.
Mr. STERN. Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it?
Mr. HOLLAND. Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail.
Mr. STERN. Turning right off of Main onto Houston?
Mr. HOLLAND. It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto
Houston.
Mr. STERN. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you
were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is
where you were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass
over Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.