Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he?
Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any
meaningful description of him?
Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to.
Mr. SPECTER. Why is that?
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it
that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully
aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it
seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story,
but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general
build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have
talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his
whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at
that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the
building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by
the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here.
Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general
impression the shots were coming from.
Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right
in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest
of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was
getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I
went to catch him, for some reason.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of
the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?
Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious
recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I
had always thought that they came from the knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second
shot came from?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came
from?
Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just
people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one
person shooting.
Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that?
Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way
they were fired--the timing.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second
group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the
fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?
Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by
someone else.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general
direction of that knoll.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing
them from that knoll?
Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't.
Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming
from the knoll?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service
was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first
group of shots?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of
those shots?
Mrs. HILL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was
starting to run?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on
the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You
know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked
all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward
the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't
see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something
about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got
away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had
really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or
had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he
had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time
I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around
the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade
sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different
directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I
want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody.
I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come
toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up
there where the tracks were.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to
what point--where? About the point of "D" here?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man?
Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had
gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get
away, and which way did he go."
Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more?
Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look
down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that
time everyone was screaming and moving around.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground?
Point it out to me on the diagram.
Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and
I saw it right about here.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.
Mrs. HILL. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything
more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over
being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people.
Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the
case?
Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of
your identification of who that man was?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason?
Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even
gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the
car.
Mr. SPECTER. In which car?
Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking
me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested
in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I
said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat
between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small
dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us
in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor
or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the
Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on
tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said,
"Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a
dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew
they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my
husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the
record?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything
on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best
procedure to follow, that everything be written down.
Mrs. HILL. Well.
Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort.
Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called
Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap,"
and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't
know it was going to be taken down.
Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious
when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had
seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would
have to see a dog."
Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?
Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of
people.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this
man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have?
Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight?
Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any
bigger than Jack Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller.
Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat?
Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat.
Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?
Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the
impression of a brown hat.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age?
Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro?
Mrs. HILL. He was a white man.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me?
Mrs. HILL. No; I can't.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?
Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about
this man and your reason for moving toward him?
Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at
point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?
Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from
different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging
them, trying to get back across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. That's right.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street?
Mrs. HILL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next?
Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he
had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?