The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April
1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise
your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. FISCHER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?
Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?
Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor.
Mr. BELIN. For whom?
Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor.
Mr. BELIN. And where do you work?
Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building.
Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building?
Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas?
Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record,
Elm, and Houston.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?
Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Children?
Mr. FISCHER. Two.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes.
Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to?
Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you
graduated from high school?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is that?
Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at
Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually
attended the school?
Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school?
Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night
school.
Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?
Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been
working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a
correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.
Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but
you are taking the correspondence course also?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's
office?
Mr. FISCHER. Five years.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22,
1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch,
the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not?
Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do.
Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now?
Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a
college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I
believe. I don't know the name of the college.
Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?
Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of
employment on that day to watch the motorcade?
Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a
quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go
ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in
other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on
down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the
parade was over.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until
about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5
or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside
the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to
find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston
and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade
came by.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and
Elm--approximately?
Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20.
Mr. BELIN. 12:20?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest
corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in
front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the
sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we
were standing right on the curb there.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the
actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not?
Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the
shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see
it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there.
We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have
just looked down the street and seen it.
Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which
would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make
the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?
Mr. FISCHER. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on
that curb?
Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of
the parade came around the corner.
Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that?
Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen
any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before
the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look
at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He
looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something.
And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15
seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of
Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the
corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started
watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds,
because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't
watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He
looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple
underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all
the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never
moved anything. Just was there transfixed.
Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man?
Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in
the fifth or sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this
you saw him in?
Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in?
Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the
front of the building, it would have been to your right.
Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east,
south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this
have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?
Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was
it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side,
or the west part of the south side?
Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would
it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the
third, or the fourth--or what?
Mr. FISCHER. First window.
Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe
his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?
Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the
top of his head.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he
was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a
little forward.
And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been
a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white,
I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a
short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.
Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light
complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?
Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark;
possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it
was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding
hair-line--or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair,
because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see
of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.
Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a
profile of it, or what was it?
Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I
believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what
direction he was looking at?
Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple
underpass.
Mr. BELIN. Down what street?
Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Down Elm?
Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?
Mr. FISCHER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?
Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window?
Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from
the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It
looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him
because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the
window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like
there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and
the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window
there.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there
that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't
remember seeing any others.
Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or
that you just do not remember seeing any?
Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto
Houston from Main--is that correct?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window?
Mr. FISCHER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window?
Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window.
Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the
motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be
going?
Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was
in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he
was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what happened?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn
and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up
onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all
the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I
started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other
cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker.
And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or
anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot
rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody
started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot.
At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more,
there must have been just three.
Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a
firecracker, too?
Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like
the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles
fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the
sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much
like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a
firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?
Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several.
Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a
firecracker or what?
Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting
at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone
would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was
shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a
real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.
Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?
Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School
Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there
were some railroad cars back in there.
Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I
couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and
up the hill.
Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart?
Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that.
And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds.
Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the
second and the third?
Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were
evenly spaced.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the
shots?
Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running
down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there
were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When
the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running,
some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and
then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and
then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to
the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where
the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were
a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was
on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the
triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and
two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man
said at that time that the President had been shot.
And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up
to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run,
thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed
to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars
and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these
passenger--freight cars were.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then?
Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we
work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And
that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think
he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left.
After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there
for a little while and----
Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the
records building do you feel?
Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot
was fired. Something like that.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the
front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way
we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the
south side of Elm, and then crossed.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming
out of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front;
but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records
building--and then what did you do?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our
office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then
I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a
radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet
that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was
trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.
And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or
10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a
radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still
nobody knew anything.
Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till
1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the
window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book
Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives
in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the
shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the
shooting--or something was wrong with the building.
So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the
only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with
the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do
with it.
About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me
if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff
Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.
Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now?
Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?
Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in
there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at
least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both
been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of
the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get
me--because he had told them.
There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people.
They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I
noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two
boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit
the ground when the shots started.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to
be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the
floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that
back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like
he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but
I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box
maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.
Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a
straight-up position?
Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly.
Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell?
Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell,
but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the
window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been
hard for me to see him at all.
Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at
the sheriff's office--is that it?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an
individual and ask you to try and identify him?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was?
Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee
Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say?
Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man.
Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?
Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that
I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I
was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that
I gave--but I can't say for sure.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the
picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked
like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know
whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School
Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have
seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would
have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his
complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.
Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the
window or not--or don't you remember?
Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back
in the shadow of the window.
Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the
same day or on the next day?
Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't
remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I
don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different
between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the
window?
Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the
color of the hair was of the man in the picture?
Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it
was definitely brown.