Mr. SPECTER. Now, turning to Exhibit, Diagram No. 2 on this exhibit,
and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the
point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond
with the angle of declination on Governor Connally's wound?
Dr. GREGORY. To the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately
depict that angle. If I were to have any reservation at all, it would
be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry,
as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and
it may not be correct.
Mr. SPECTER. I now call your attention to Diagram No. 3 on this
sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the
Governor's wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. I think that this one comes more closely into line with
their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry
in the posterior aspect of the chest. It is a little lower here, as I
recall it to be. Those of the wrist, I think are accurately depicted,
and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted.
Mr. SPECTER. And on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry
to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar
aspect?
Dr. GREGORY. According to the anatomical position, I believe that they
do; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, looking at Diagram No. 4, does this again correspond
with your recollection of the angle of decline on Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. Again, if I have a reservation it would be to the wound of
entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it
actually existed.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Dr. Gregory, I turn to Diagram No. 5, which depicts a
seated man and what does Diagram No. 5 depict to your eye with respect
to what action is described on the seated man?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, I should say that this composite has alined the
several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single
missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of
the wounds which are shown.
Moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted
on the side views showing the angle of declination. I submit that
the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very
simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees,
and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward,
without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor
in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into
this same trajectory.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you consider it possible, in your professional
opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which
you have described on Governor Connally?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I believe it very possible, for a number of reasons.
One of these--is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the
various body surfaces, which I transected, the greatest energy being
at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of
the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least
destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where
the bullet apparently expended itself.
Mr. SPECTER. What destruction was done on the fifth rib, Dr. Gregory?
Dr. GREGORY. It is my understanding from conversations with Dr. Shaw,
and I believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was
literally shattered by the missile.
We know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency
to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered
was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred
in the radius--the forearm.
Mr. SPECTER. And what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the
velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony
portions?
Dr. GREGORY. I think that the missile was continually losing velocity
with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the
amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the
thorax to the last entrance in the thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it possible that Governor Connally was shot
by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and
the second one striking the back side of his wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these
reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight--I'll qualify that--a high
velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into
the wound which it creates.
I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr.
Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic
material was found in the chest wound.
An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was
carried into the wound of the wrist.
I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile
striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other characteristic which led and leads you
to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a
single high velocity bullet?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes. Based on our experience with high velocity missile
wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting
calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone
fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the
part.
I do not believe that the missile wound in Governor Connally's right
forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it
struck him. It either had to be one of lower initial energy or a
missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck
his wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile
had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of 200 feet
per second?
Dr. GREGORY. That's not a very high velocity missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--2,000 feet per second.
Dr. GREGORY. I should say that a missile at 2,000 feet per second that
strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a
missile of any mass as well.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet
per second and assume the mass is 6.5 mm., and assume further that the
distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately 160 to 250
feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the
consequences would be on that wrist?
Dr. GREGORY. I will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle
wounds that I have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer
range than that which you have stipulated, but I doubt that a range of
155 or 200 feet would seriously reduce the energy, and I would expect a
similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me add another possibility in this sequence, Dr.
Gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional
intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this
effect--assume that President Kennedy was riding in an open automobile
directly behind Governor Connally, and that at a distance of
approximately 175 feet President Kennedy was struck by a bullet from
a weapon with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, carrying a
6.5 mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of
the President's back very near the neckline and passed through his
body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the
President. Is it possible that missile could have then entered the back
of the Governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described?
Dr. GREGORY. I would have to concede that that would be possible--yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What would your professional opinion be, if you can
formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this
situation?
Dr. GREGORY. I really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about
it. Only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply
of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this
sequence of events could have occurred. I would hazard one guess, that
is, that had the missile that struck Governor Connally passed through
President Kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been
distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble.
Now, if you like, I will define that for you.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you please?
Dr. GREGORY. A tumbling is a second--it actually is a third component
of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. First,
there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. In
order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary
motion so that it is spinning. Now, both of these are commensurate with
the constant trajectory. A third component, which is tumbling, and is
literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile
should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop
it--in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile
usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as
a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and I would have therefore expected
to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of
entry in Governor Connally's back.
These are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the
reasons why I would believe that the missile in the Governor behaved as
though it had never struck anything except him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the nature of the wound in the Governor's
back?
Dr. GREGORY. Only so far as I saw it as Dr. Shaw was preparing to
operate on it, but I was unable to see the nature of the wound as he
carried out his operation. I did, however, specifically question him
about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc.
Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?
Dr. GREGORY. Well, as I recall it, he said none was found, and I would
not have expected any to be found as I explained to you, if this was
the initial impact of that missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that
my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have
gone through President Kennedy and inflicted the wound on Governor
Connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile
could have gone through President Kennedy in the way I described and
have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit
on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the
thigh which you described.
Dr. GREGORY. I suspect it's possible, but I would say it would have to
be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter
prior to today by any representative of the Federal Government?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes; on two or three occasions I have talked to a properly
identified member of the Secret Service, Mr. Warren, I believe it was.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the information which you gave
to Mr. Warren on those occasions?
Dr. GREGORY. Essentially the same thing as I have told you here, but in
much less detail.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you ever talked to anyone besides Mr. Warren and
me about these matters, from the Federal Government?
Dr. GREGORY. No; not that I know of. I was on a day or so after the
assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, but it was a very brief interview.
Mr. SPECTER. What was that about?
Dr. GREGORY. And I think it was the question of whether or not I had
been able to recover any metal from Governor Connally which they might
use for ballistic analysis.
I regret to say I don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was
properly identified.
Mr. SPECTER. And prior to the time when the Court Reporter started to
transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us
with, had you and I been talking about the same subjects which you have
answered questions on all during the course of this deposition?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And during the time that you first were interviewed by the
Secret Service down through the present moment, have you had the same
general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about
here today?
Dr. GREGORY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful in any way to the work of the Commission?
Dr. GREGORY. No; not really. This is the only articulation I have had
with this whole episode concerning Governor Connally's wound and his
subsequent recovery and none other.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Dr. Gregory, for coming.
Dr. GREGORY. Very well.