Gentleman opposite, the Member for Londonderry, who made a not very
civil speech, so far as it regarded persons who entertain the same
opinions generally which I profess, seemed to allege that there was no
party so tyrannical as those who wished to carry this rate in aid, and
that no body of men on earth were so oppressed as the unfortunate
proprietors of Ulster. [Mr. Bateson: 'The farmers of Ulster'] I have
made a calculation, the result of which is, that, with the population of
Ulster, a 6_d_. rate would be 82,000_l_. a-year, or 164,000_l_. for the
two years during which they will be required to pay towards the support
of their fellow-countrymen in the south and west. If I were an Ulster
proprietor, I would not have raised my voice against such a proposition,
because it is not a state of things of an ordinary character, nor are
these proprietors called on to do that which nobody else has done before
them. Neither were they called upon before other sources had been
applied to. Had I been an Ulster proprietor, I would rather have left
this House than have taken the course they have pursued in denouncing
this measure. As to the farmers of Ulster, they would not have raised
this opposition had they not been instigated to do so by hon. Members in
this House, and by the proprietors in that province, whom they
represented. It appears by the reports of the inspectors under the poor-
law, that where there has been a difficulty in collecting rates, and the
people have refused to pay, they have followed the example of the higher
and landlord class; and the conduct of that class in many cases has been
such as to render the collection extremely difficult. [Mr. Bateson: 'Not
in Ulster'] I do not speak of Ulster particularly in this instance, but
the case has occurred in other places; but happily for Ulster the burden
has not proved so serious in that province.
I have heard a good deal said respecting the resignation of Mr.
Twisleton, who preferred giving up his situation to supporting the rate
in aid. But the reasons assigned by Mr. Twisleton destroy the importance
of his own act. He did not insist upon the question whether Ulster was
able to bear the rate in aid; but his objection was that Ulster was
Ulster, and more Ulster than it was Ireland. He said Ulster preferred
being united with England, rather than with Leinster, Connaught, and
Munster; in short, that Ulster was unwilling to be made a part of
Ireland. Now, if this Bill can succeed in making Ulster a part of
Ireland in interests and sympathies, I think it will be attended with a
very happy result, and one that will compensate for some portion of the
present misfortunes of Ireland.
But the hon. Member also, in another part of his speech, charged the
Government with having caused the calamities of Ireland. Now, if I were
the hon. Member, I would not have opened up that question. My opinion
is, that the course which Parliament has taken with respect to Ireland
for upwards of a century, and especially since the Union, has been in
accordance with the wishes of the proprietors of the land of that
country. If, therefore, there has been misgovernment in Ireland during
that period, it is the land which has influenced Parliament, and the
landowners are responsible. I do not mean to say that the House of
Commons is not responsible for taking the evil advice which the
landowners of Ireland have proffered; but what I mean to assert is, that
this advice has been almost invariably acted upon by the Government.
This it is which has proved fatal to the interests of Ireland; the
Ulster men have stood in the way of improvements in the Franchise, in
the Church, and in the Land question; they have purchased Protestant
ascendancy, and the price paid for it is the ruin and degradation of
their country. So much for the vote which I am about to give in support
of the rate in aid.
In the next place, I must observe that if an income tax were to be
substituted for a rate in aid, I think I could show substantial reasons
why it would not be satisfactory. In the first place, I take an
objection to the imposition of an income tax for the express purpose of
supporting paupers. This, I apprehend, is a fatal objection at the
outset. I understand that there has been a document issued by a
Committee in another place, which has reported favourably for the
substitution of an income tax in lieu of the rate in aid. I always find
that if a proposition is brought forward by the Government to impose a
new tax, it is always for a tax which is disliked, and I conclude, that
if an income tax for Ireland had been proposed instead of the rate in
aid, that would have been repudiated with quite as much vigour as the
proposition now before the House.
And now I will address a few words to the general question of Ireland,
which I think may be fairly entered upon in this debate after the speech
of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth. What have we been
doing all the Session? With the exception of the Jewish Oaths Bill, and
the Navigation Laws, our attention has been solely taken up with Irish
matters. From the incessant recurrence of the Irish debate, it would
seem, either that the wrongs and evils endured by the Irish people are
incurable, or else that we lack statesmen. I always find that, whoever
happens to sit on the other side of the table, he always has some scheme
to propose for the regeneration of Ireland. The noble Lord on the
Treasury bench had his schemes for that purpose when he was seated
opposite. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth now has his
scheme to propose, and if he can succeed in it, he will not only have
the universal wish of the nation in his favour, but the noble Lord also
who is at the head of the Government will not, I am sure, object to give
way to any man who will settle the Irish question. But the treatment of
this Irish malady remains ever the same. We have nothing for it still
but force and alms. You have an armed force there of 50,000 men to keep
the people quiet, large votes are annually required to keep the people
quiet, and large votes are annually required to keep the people alive. I
presume the government by troops is easy, and that the
'Civil power may snore at ease,
While soldiers fire--to keep the peace.'
But the noble Lord at the head of the Government has no policy to
propose for Ireland. If he had, he would have told us what it is before
now. The poor-law as a means of regenerating Ireland is a delusion. So
is the rate in aid. I do not believe in the regenerating power either of
the poor-law or of the rate in aid. There may occur cases where farmers
will continue to employ labourers for the mere purpose of preventing
them from coming on the poor-rates, but these are exceptions. If the
desire of gain will not cause the employment of capital, assuredly poor-
rates wall not. A poor-law adds to pauperism, by inviting to idleness.
It drags down the man who pays, and demoralises him who receives. It may
expose, it may temporarily relieve, it will increase, but it can never
put an end to pauperism. The poor-law and the rate in aid are,
therefore, utterly unavailing for such a purpose.
It is the absence of all demand for labour that constitutes the real
evil of Ireland. In the distressed Unions a man's labour is absolutely
worth nothing. It is not that the Irish people will not work. I spoke to
an Irish navigator the other day respecting his work, and I asked him
why his countrymen did not work in their own country. 'Give them
2_s_. 8_d_. a-day,' said he, 'and you will find plenty who
will work.' There exists in Ireland a lamentable want of employment. The
land there enjoys a perpetual sabbath. If the people of Ireland were set
to work, they would gain their subsistence; but if this course is not
adopted, they must either continue to be supported out of the taxes, or
else be left to starve. In order to show how great is the general
poverty in Ireland, I will read a statement of the comparative amount of
legacy duty paid in the two countries. In England, in the year 1844, the
amount of capital on which legacy duty was paid was 44,393,887_l_.;
in Ireland, in 1845, the amount of capital on which legacy duty was paid
was 2,140,021_l_.--the population of the latter being nearly one-
half of the former, whilst the proportion between the capital paying
legacy duty is only one-twentieth. In 1844, the legacy duty paid in
England was 1,124,435_l_., with a population of 16,000,000; in
Scotland it was 74,116_l_., with a population of 3,000,000; whilst
Ireland paid only 53,618_l_., with a population of 8,000,000. These
facts offer the strongest possible proof of the poverty of Ireland.
On looking over the reports of the Poor-law Inspectors, I find them
teeming with statements of the wretchedness which prevails in the
distressed districts of Ireland. The general character of the reports
is, that starvation is, literally speaking, gradually driving the
population into their graves. The people cannot quit their hovels for
want of clothing, whilst others cannot be discharged from the workhouses
owing to the same cause. Men are seen wearing women's apparel, not being
able to procure proper clothing; whilst, in other instances, men, women,
and children are all huddled together under bundles of rags, unable to
rise for lack of covering; workhouses and prisons are crowded beyond
their capacity to contain, the mortality being very great in them.
Persons of honest character commit thefts in order to be sent to prison,
and some ask, as a favour, to be transported.
I know of nothing like this in the history of modern times. The only
parallel I can find to it is in the work of the great German author
(Mosheim), who, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, speaking of
the inroads of the barbarians into the Roman empire in the fifth
century, says that in Gaul, the calamities of the times drove many to
such madness, that they wholly excluded God from the government of the
world, and denied His providence over human affairs. It would almost
appear that this state of things is now to be seen in Ireland. The
prisons are crowded, the chapels deserted, society is disorganised and
ruined; labour is useless, for capital is not to be had for its
employment. The reports of the Inspectors say that this catastrophe has
only been hastened, and not originated, by the failure of the potato
crop during the last four years, and that all men possessed of any
intelligence must have foreseen what would ultimately happen.
This being the case, in what manner are the Irish people to subsist in
future? There is the land, and there is labour enough to bring it into
cultivation. But such is the state in which the land is placed, that
capital cannot be employed upon it. You have tied up the raw material in
such a manner--you have created such a monopoly of land by your laws and
your mode of dealing with it, as to render it alike a curse to the
people and to the owners of it. Why, let me ask, should land be tied up
any more than any other raw material? If the supply of cotton wool were
limited to the hands of the Browns and the Barings, what would be the
condition of the Lancashire manufactories? What the manufactories would
be under such a monopoly, the land in the county of Mayo actually is
under the system which prevails with respect to it in Ireland. But land
carries with it territorial influence, which the Legislature will not
interfere with lest it should be disturbed. Land is sacred, and must not
be touched.
The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade will
understand what I mean when I allude to the Land Improvement Company
which the Legislature is ready to charter for Ireland, but which it
fears to suffer to exist in England, lest the territorial influence
which ever accompanies the possession of landed estates should be lost
or diminished. But one of the difficulties to which a remedy must be
applied is the defective titles, which cannot easily be got rid of under
the present system of entails. This is one of the questions to which the
House of Commons must very soon give its serious attention. Then there
comes the question of settlements. Now, I do not say there ought not to
be any settlements; but what I mean to say is, that they are so bound up
and entangled with the system of entails as to present insuperable
difficulties in the way of dealing with land as a marketable commodity.
I have here an Opinion which I will read to the House, which I find
recorded as having been given by an eminent counsel: it is quoted in
Hayes' work on Conveyancing, and the Opinion was given on the occasion
of a settlement on the marriage of a gentleman having a fee-simple
estate:--
'The proposals extend to a strict settlement by the gentleman
upon the first and other sons of the marriage. It will appear
from the preceding observations, that where the relative
circumstances are such as in the present case, a strict
settlement of the gentleman's estate does not ordinarily enter
into the arrangement, which begins and ends with his taking the
lady's fortune, and imposing an equivalent pecuniary charge upon
his estate (for her personal benefit). The proposals seldom go
further, unless there is hereditary rank or title to be
supported, or it is in contemplation to found a family. The
former of those two circumstances do not exist in this case, and
the latter would require the settlement of the bulk of the
estates. The policy of such settlements is extremely
questionable. It is difficult to refer them, in the absence of
both the motives already indicated, to any rational principle.
The present possessor has absolute dominion; his character is
known, his right unquestionable. He is asked to reduce himself to
a mere tenant for life in favour of an unborn son, of whose
character nothing can be predicted, and who, if he can be said to
have any right, cannot possibly have a preferable right. At no
very distant period the absolute dominion must be confided to
somebody--and why should confidence be reposed in the unborn
child rather than the living parent? Such, a settlement has no
tendency to protect or benefit the father, whose advantage and
comfort ought first to be consulted. It does not shield him from
the consequences of his own imprudence. On the contrary, if his
expenditure should in any instance exceed his income, he--as a
mere tenant for life--is in danger of being obliged to borrow on
annuity, a process which, once begun, proceeds generally and
almost necessarily to the exhaustion of the life income. The son
may be an idiot or a spendthrift. He may be tempted to raise
money by _post obit_. If to these not improbable results we
add all the family feuds generated between the tenant for life
and remainderman, in regard to the management and enjoyment by
the former of that estate which was once his own, particularly
with reference to cutting timber, the disadvantages of thus
fettering the dominion will appear greatly to preponderate. At
best, a settlement is a speculation; at worst, it is the occasion
of distress, profligacy, and domestic discord, ending not
unfrequently, as the Chancery Reports bear witness, in obstinate
litigation, ruinous alike to the peace and to the property of the
family. Sometimes the father effects an arrangement with his
eldest son on his coming of age; the son stipulating for an
immediate provision in the shape of an annuity, the father for a
gross sum to satisfy his creditors, or to portion his younger
children, and for a resettlement of the estate. This arrangement,
perhaps, is brought about by means, or imposes terms, which, in
the eye of equity, render it a fraud upon the son; and here we
have another source of litigation.'
Now, what I have here read is exactly that which everybody's experience
tells us is the fact, and we have recently had a notable case which
exactly answers to that referred to in the last paragraph of this
Opinion. The practice of making settlements of this description is
mischievous--leads to endless litigation--and sooner or later the landed
classes must sink under it.
The Irish proprietors have also another difficulty to contend with, and
that is their extravagance. It is said--for I cannot vouch for the fact
myself--that they keep too many horses and dogs. I do not mean to say
that an Irish gentleman may not spend his rents as he pleases; but I can
say that he cannot both spend his money and have it too. I think if they
would cast their pride on one side, and go honestly to work--if, instead
of their young men spending their time 'waiting for a commission' they
were to go into business, they would be far better and more usefully
employed, and they would find that the less humiliating condition of the
two. Another bane of Ireland is the prevalence of life interests in
landed property there. Under such a system the land can neither be
improved nor sold. Now what has the noble Lord at the head of the
Government done towards grappling with all these questions? Nothing--
absolutely nothing. I think him very unwise in not propounding to
himself the momentous question, 'What shall be done for Ireland?' The
right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth has a plan. He entered upon
its outline on Friday last. But I doubt whether it has yet taken that
distinct form which it must assume in order that the House may take
cognisance of it. I admire some of the measures which the right hon.
Baronet intimates he would carry into effect, but there are other parts
of his proposals which are vague and impracticable. I think, if it is
believed in Ireland that a Commission is to be appointed to take charge
of the distressed Unions of the south and west--that the whole thing is
to be managed through a new department of the Government, and all
without the slightest trouble to the landlords--that there will be more
than ever a clinging to this wretched property in bankrupt estates, and
more than ever an indisposition to adopt those measures which are still
open to them, in the direction in which the right hon. Baronet wishes to
proceed.
The right hon. Baronet stated in his first speech on this topic, that he
did not wish the transfer of property to be by individual barter; and on
Friday he stated that he was very much averse to allowing matters to go
on in their natural course, for by that means land would be unnaturally
cheapened. Well, but upon what conditions would the right hon. Baronet
buy land in Ireland? would it be under the same circumstances, and at
the same price, that he would buy an estate in Yorkshire or
Staffordshire? If any sane man goes to the west or south of Ireland to
purchase an estate, he must go on account of the cheapness of the
bargain--a cheapness which he hopes will compensate him for all the
disadvantages to which he must necessarily be subjected in such a
purchase. There can be no redemption for that part of Ireland--if it is
to be through the transfer of land--except the land take its natural
course, and come so cheap into the market that Englishmen and Scotchmen,
and Irishmen too having capital, will be willing to purchase it,
notwithstanding all its disadvantages. [Colonel Dunne: 'Hear, hear!']
The hon. Member for Portarlington cheers that, as if it were an
extraordinary statement. If the hon. Member prefers purchasing what is
dear to what is cheap, he is not a very sensible man to legislate for
Ireland. If he thinks that a man will go into Galway and pay as much per
acre for an estate as he would in England, he is greatly mistaken; but
the fact is, I believe, that not only English and Scotch capital, but
that much Irish capital also, would be expended in the purchase of
estates in the south and west, if the ends which the right hon. Baronet
has in view were facilitated by this House.
But we have a case in point which affords us some guidance upon this
question, and it is a case with which the right hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth, and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, are very
familiar. I allude to the case of Stockport in 1842. Owing to a variety
of circumstances--I will not go into the question of the Corn-law, as
that is settled--but owing to a variety of circumstances, from 1838 to
1842 there was a continued sinking in the condition of Stockport--its
property depreciated to a lamentable extent. One man left property, as
he thought, worth 80,000_l_. or 90,000_l_. Within two years it
sold for little more than 30,000_l_. Since that time the son of one
man, then supposed to be a person of large property, has had relief from
the parochial funds. In 1842 the amount of the poor-rate averaged from
7_s_. to 8_s_. in the pound. From November 4, 1841, to May 30,
1842, the rates levied were 6_s_. in the pound, realising the
amount of 19,144_l_. From January 28, 1843, to August 2 of the same
year, the rates levied were 7_s_. in the pound, and the amount
raised was 21,948_l_. And bear in mind that at that time Stockport
was in process of depopulation--many thousands quitted the place--whole
streets were left with scarcely a tenant in them--some public-houses,
previously doing a large business, were let for little more than their
rates; in fact, Stockport was as fair a representative of distress
amongst a manufacturing community as Mayo, Galway, or any western county
of Ireland can be at this moment of distress amongst an agricultural
community.
Now what was done in Stockport? There was a Commission of Inquiry, which
the then Home Secretary appointed. They made an admirable report, the
last paragraph of which ought to be read by every one who wishes to know
the character of the people of Stockport. Mr. Twisleton, speaking of
them, said that they were a noble people; and truly the exertions which
they made to avoid becoming chargeable upon the rates were heroic. Well
now, all this suffering was going on--the workhouses were crowded, the
people were emigrating, there was a general desolation, and if it had
not been for the harvest of 1842, which was a good one, and the gradual
recovery of trade which followed, nothing in Ireland can be worse than
the condition of Stockport would have been. What was the result?
Property was greatly depreciated, and much of it changed hands.
Something like half the manufacturers failed, and, of course, gave up
business altogether. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockport purchased
property in the borough at that period, and since then he has laid out
not far short of a hundred thousand pounds, in a very large
manufacturing establishment in that town. In fact, the persons who are
now carrying on the manufacturing business in Stockport are of a more
substantial character than those who were swept away by the calamities
of 1842. This is a very sorrowful process. I can feel as much for those
persons as any man; but we must all submit to circumstances such as
these when they come.
There are vicissitudes in all classes of society, and in all occupations
in which we may engage; and when we have, as now in Ireland, a state of
things--a grievous calamity not equalled under the sun,--it is the duty
of this House not to interfere with the ordinary and natural course of
remedy, and not to flinch from what is necessary for the safety of the
people by reason of any mistaken sympathy with the owners of cotton
mills or with the proprietors of landed estates. Now, I want Parliament
to remove every obstacle in the way of the free sale of land. I believe
that in this policy lies the only security you have for the restoration
of the distressed districts of Ireland. The question of a Parliamentary
title is most important; but I understand that the difficulty of this
arises from the system of entails beyond persons now living, and because
you must go back through a long search of sixty years before you can
make it quite clear that the title is absolutely secure. The right hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth suggested that the Lord Chancellor
should be ousted. I proposed last year that there should be a new court
established in Ireland, for the adjudication of cases connected with
land, and for no other purpose, and that it should thus relieve the
present courts from much of the business with which they are now
encumbered. But I do not say that even such a court would effect much
good, unless it were very much more speedy in its operations than the
existing courts. I believe that the present Lord Chancellor is admitted
to be as good a Judge as ever sat in the Court of Chancery; but he is
rather timid as a Minister, and inert as a statesman; and, if I am not
mistaken, he was in a great measure responsible for the failure of the
Bill for facilitating the sale of encumbered estates last Session. The
Government must have known, as well as I do, that such a measure could
not succeed, and that the clause which was introduced--on the third
reading, I believe--made it impossible to work it.