[The committee reported the names of Mr. Hanson, of the Library of
Congress, for chairman, and Miss Mary E. Hawley, Chicago Public Library,
for secretary.]
Mr. HANSON: I am the chairman of the advisory committee and we have a
great deal of hard work before us. I would ask the section to accept my
resignation. I really do not feel I can give the time necessary to make
this section a success at the next meeting.
CHAIRMAN: There are no rules governing us, Mr. Hanson, but I beg that
you do not insist on this, or if you feel you must resign that you do so
between now and the next session.
The names submitted were unanimously elected, and adjournment was taken
subject to call of chair.
_SECOND SESSION._
The second session of the Catalog Section was called to order on
Wednesday, July 10, ANDERSON H. HOPKINS presiding.
CHAIRMAN: The matters that were of first importance to be brought before
the section were discussed yesterday. At the same time there are other
things that I am sure would be interesting; and perhaps you would prefer
to bring up your own topics, and each present something you would like
to talk about.
Miss WAGNER: Is the Y. M. C. A. question proper for discussion?
CHAIRMAN: I believe that question was received; please read it, Mr.
Hanson.
Mr. HANSON (reading): Young Men's Christian Associations, mercantile
library associations and the like are to be entered under place. That is
1 i 21 of the rules suggested.
Miss WAGNER: It is our practice to put the Y. M. C. A. under Y. M. C.
A.; Y. M. C. A., Boston; Y. M. C. A., New York; instead of putting it
under place. There is a separate association which has a distinctive
being and the local associations are branches. It seems this is much
more logical, and where the public would expect to find reports of the
Y. M. C. A.
Mr. HANSON: I wish to state in support of Miss Wagner's contention that
Mr. Cutter in his new edition, which is now in manuscript, was rather in
favor of changing his rule, which reads as this one does. He has always
advised entering under the place; but he was now inclined to enter under
Young Men's Christian Association, not only for the general association
of the United States, but for the associations of the various states. A
majority of the committee, however, seemed inclined to enter the local
Y. M. C. A. under the place, on the ground that 99 per cent. would look
for Chicago Y. M. C. A. under Chicago, Philadelphia Y. M. C. A. under
Philadelphia, rather than under Y. M. C. A.; and that the same was true
of the mercantile library associations.
Miss CRAWFORD: Was any argument brought forth to substantiate that
statement that nine-tenths of the people would look under the local
name?
Mr. HANSON: No contention, except that it seemed to be the general
experience.
Miss CRAWFORD: It seems to me if the committee would correspond with
public libraries there might be some change of opinion on the matter.
Miss WAGNER: I find that Chicago enters Y. M. C. A. under Y. M. C. A.,
as the St. Louis Public Library does.
Miss CRAWFORD: The logical thing has always seemed the fair thing in
this matter--to ask one's self the question, Has the organization a
national existence? And if so, to enter it under the generic name. The
Y. M. C. A. has a national existence, which is more important as a
governing body than any one of the local associations. And the same is
true of other organizations. If they have no national organization, then
I enter them under the local name; but if there is a national
association, then I enter under the generic name.
Miss AMBROSE: Would you follow the same reasoning for entries under
Methodist Episcopal church, or would you put them under the place? It
seems to me the same reasoning would apply.
Miss CRAWFORD: I shouldn't wish this logical process to supersede the
better rule of entering under the best known form. And I think in the
case Miss Ambrose mentions the best known form would be the locality.
Mr. HANSON: Miss Wagner's question has launched us into the center of
the most difficult problem of all--that is, corporate entry, entry of
societies and institutions. There is an underlying principle which
governs our distinctions, I believe. There is a distinction to be made
between societies, and to some extent institutions; societies, including
royal academies, which are societies, to be entered under the first word
not an article; on the other hand, institutions, galleries, museums,
libraries, etc., which generally have buildings and are affiliated
closely with the place, to be entered under place, unless they have
other distinctive names--that is to say, names from persons or
geographical locations. That principle would to some extent affect the
Young Men's Christian Associations and mercantile libraries.
Miss CRAWFORD: Would that override the other rule of entering under the
best known form? Would the institution entry override the principle of
entering under best known form?
Mr. HANSON: That rule we have not formulated. We have not considered as
broad a rule as that--entry under best known form. We have tried to lay
down some rule that should govern entry under place and entry under
name; and what we are really trying to get at is best known form.
Miss CRAWFORD: I appreciate that, and there ought to be some ground on
which to make exceptions. I think your distinction between institutions
and societies is a good one. Is not the Y. M. C. A. a good case to make
an exception?
Mr. HANSON: Yes, that is the 21st exception, is it not, under the rule?
The general rule is, "Enter societies under the first word not an
article or serial number, of its corporate name." Then there are 22
exceptions, and we began with the 21st.
L. P. LANE: I don't know whether the practice of the Boston Public
Library is of interest, but personally I incline to the views Miss
Crawford has expressed. The Boston Public Library strives to use the
corporate name where there is a corporate name, carrying that practice,
I think, to an extreme degree, so that they enter Chamber of Commerce
under Chamber of Commerce, so and so. I understand under this rule
Chamber of Commerce would be entered under the name of the place.
Mr. HANSON: Yes. We propose to enter all boards of trade, all chambers
of commerce under the name of the city or state.
Miss KROEGER: That comes under rule 1 i 9: If a body's name begins with
such words as "board," "corporation," "trustees," enter that part of the
name by which they are usually known.
Mr. HANSON: This will be very helpful to the committee, because it shows
that in the case of exception 21 there is a strong sentiment of entering
it under name instead of under place.
Miss CRAWFORD: Would you make that same application to mercantile
libraries? It seems to me in that case the place is what people would
look for, just as they would for a public library.
Mr. HANSON: Yes, personally I should feel disposed to give in on the Y.
M. C. A. question, but not on the mercantile library.
Miss WAGNER: The mercantile library has no general organization. If you
enter the local Y. M. C. A. under the city you are forcing the people to
look in perhaps 30 or 40 places.
Mr. BISCOE: Is it the purpose of the author arrangement to show what the
library has on Y. M. C. A.?
Miss WAGNER: It is the purpose to show what the library owns under the
authorship of the Y. M. C. A. And to find that you force the person to
look into as many different places as there are Y. M. C. A.'s
represented in your catalog. The person who comes to your catalog
wanting to know what Y. M. C. A. publications you have has a right to
find them in one place.
Mr. HANSON: He could always find it by cross-reference under the general
Y. M. C. A. to every local Y. M. C. A. represented in the catalog. The
contention at the meeting of the committee was that in a great majority
of cases a man is interested in a particular Y. M. C. A. If he comes to
study all Y. M. C. A.'s the catalog must make provision to help him.
CHAIRMAN: I am one who maintains the thesis that no one has a right to
expect to find everything pertaining to Y. M. C. A. under Y. M. C. A. in
the author catalog.
Miss WAGNER: It seems to me in the author catalog you have a right to
expect to find what the author has written, therefore you have a right
to find what the Y. M. C. A. is responsible for.
Mr. BISCOE: Why isn't it the same thing to expect to find out everything
about the Episcopal church under "Episcopal church"? Isn't every branch
of the Episcopal church a part of the general Episcopal church?
Miss WAGNER: The answer in our library would be that nobody asks for
that information, as they do for the Y. M. C. A.
CHAIRMAN: Are you sure the reason they ask for the Y. M. C. A. in that
way is not because you catalog it that way, and they have learned to
look for it there?
Miss WAGNER: My answer is that for the last seven years we entered Y. M.
C. A. under place. The change was made in agreement with the demand at
the issue desk.
CHAIRMAN: That is just the kind of thing we want to find out.
Miss CRAWFORD: Under 1 i 12 what would you advise regarding the Carnegie
libraries which in large numbers have assumed the name Carnegie since
the endowment of the building? Would you give them all as Carnegie
libraries of so-and-so, or would you still preserve the form showing the
library was supported by the city in which it was? For example,
Pittsburgh Carnegie Library and Atlanta Carnegie Library--introducing
the word Carnegie right after the city? Or would you advise putting the
word Carnegie for all of these libraries?
Mr. HANSON: I have not had to deal with that question. I should think
they would be entered under the name of the city, and then if you want
to bring the entire Carnegie record together you can make a second
entry.
CHAIRMAN: This raises the question whether or not the designation
"Carnegie library" is an official one. If it is not, then it is a name
which has come up by common consent, and it seems to me that nothing but
time would enable us to determine exactly how it should be treated; the
conservative thing would be to use the name of the place.
Miss AMBROSE: I would like to hear an expression of opinion--it is the
same principle in three different places, 1 i 4, 1 i 5 and 1 i 16--as to
entering professional schools, libraries and observatories separately if
they have distinctive names separate from the corporations that they
belong to.
Mr. HANSON: I think it would be better to enter the colleges of American
universities under the name of the university. It is an easy rule to
follow and a rule that has been followed in American libraries. On the
other hand we have peculiar cases--the medical schools, for instance,
which have distinctive names and are often situated a hundred miles from
the mother school. "College libraries and local college societies under
the name of the college, but the Bodleian library may be put under
Bodleian. Intercollegiate societies and Greek letter fraternities under
the name." I think all will agree with that. 1 i 16, "Observatories
under the name of the place, except that those having distinctive names
are to be entered under that name. Refer for university observatories
from the university." I personally think that is unfortunate; I would
prefer to see university and observatories under university. For
instance, for Washburn observatory I would say, "Wisconsin university,
Washburn observatory."
Miss CRAWFORD: Under 1 h 1, "Enter Government bureaus or offices
subordinate to a department directly under the country not as
sub-heading under departments." Is it proposed to invert the name of the
bureau or office so as to bring the distinctive name to the fore or let
it read in its natural way?
Mr. HANSON: The practice of inverting has been followed, I think, in the
majority of American catalogs. We have not as yet inverted our headings.
We are printing them in the order in which they read, as "Bureau of
Education"; but that does not mean we may not arrange entries under
United States, _Education_.
L. P. LANE: It seems to me it would be most desirable to harmonize the
practice of the Superintendent of Documents with the Library of Congress
in this matter. In the "Comprehensive catalogue" there is this
inversion, and it seems to me it has been very judiciously done. In the
present practice of the Boston Public Library, however, it is not done.
Miss AMBROSE: I should like a definition of the word "local" in 1 i 20.
Mr. HANSON: 1 i 20: "Purely local benevolent or moral or similar
societies under the place."
Mr. Cutter said that he had more trouble with this rule than with any
other. He had, in fact, I believe decided to enter under name, not under
place, but it seems during the discussion he changed back to the old
rule.
Miss KROEGER: That was in deference to the majority vote. Mr. Cutter's
opinion favored entry under name.
Mr. HANSON: His reason seemed to be that those referring to these local
societies were the citizens of the place where they were situated and
they sought the name of the society. If the people in other states,
using other catalogs, were looking for the societies, they would not
remember the name. In fact, the only thing that remains in one's memory
is the name of the place, and one naturally would look under the place
for it.
CHAIRMAN: As I understand Miss Ambrose she raises the question how large
a locality might be meant--whether it should go to the limits of a
county or a state. I should have supposed it meant a narrower locality
and would apply to a city or town--a vicinage.
Mr. JOSEPHSON: Perhaps it might be well to let the word "local" mean
here what it means in "local geography"--anything belonging to the
state--not taking in towns.
I should like to bring up 1 k: "Enter commentaries accompanied by the
full text of the work under the name of the author." And then exceptions
only when the text is not to be readily distinguished from the
commentary. We have a good many cases where the text is particularly
short--a text of from four or five or ten pages--and then comes a
commentary of several hundred pages. It seems absurd to catalog a text
of five or ten pages accompanied by a commentary of five or six hundred
pages under the name of the author of the text.
Miss KROEGER: That is provided for in the rule. "Except when the text is
distributed through the commentary in such a manner as not to be readily
recognized or is insignificant as compared with the commentary." That is
designed to fit just such cases.
Mr. HANSON: There is another rule, on laws, 1 h 3: "Laws on one or more
particular subjects, whether digested or merely collected, to be entered
under the collector or digester, with added entry under country."
I think that is a departure from the present practice, which has been to
enter New York laws on state taxation under New York, State Legislature,
and secondly under compiler or collector.
Miss AMBROSE: If you had a compilation of road laws of Illinois, you
would put that under the compiler first and secondly under Illinois
State Legislature?
Mr. HANSON: Yes.
L. P. LANE: Under 1 h and 1 q I would like to ask whether a proclamation
by the king of England would be put under England, or Great Britain,
King, or under Edward VII.?
Mr. HANSON: We enter such publications in two places; the official
proclamations or edicts under the name of the country with a subdivision
for king or sovereign, and then their private publications under their
names.
Miss CRAWFORD: 1 j: "Enter a periodical under the first word, not an
article or serial number, of its title."
What is the judgment of the committee upon newspapers? Should they
always be entered under the first word of their title, or would it be
better to enter under the name of the place?
Miss KROEGER: We consulted Mr. Fletcher about the rules, and he
suggested this very point, bringing up the question of newspapers. And
we have a rough draft of a rule to enter newspapers under the name of
the place, putting the name of the place in brackets and not in the
title. 1 j also brings up the question as to whether it is to be under
the first word of the current title or of the original title.
Miss GRAHAM: 1 i 15: "Exhibitions under the name of the place where they
are held."
It would seem to me that in the case of the Pan-American Exposition,
that should be first, rather than Buffalo. Also the Columbian
Exposition.
Mr. HANSON: I think a majority of the expositions in this country have
specific names. In the discussion of the committee I think Mr. Cutter
proposed the rule as follows: "Enter under the name of the place in case
of expositions, always making a cross-reference from the special name of
the exposition, if it has one." In all cases it would be necessary that
the cross-reference should be made from the special name by which it is
known--as the Cotton States, Pan-American, World's Columbian.
CHAIRMAN: Is there anything more to say on this subject? If not, Miss
Graham, you might bring up that question you spoke to me about this
morning.
Miss GRAHAM: The matter Mr. Hopkins refers to was regarding the revision
of the "A. L. A. catalog" of the 5000 best books. We feel the need in
small libraries, and I think the need is felt where libraries are trying
to organize, for a revision of that catalog. We all use that in small
libraries when making out lists of standard works. There are many of
them out of print. If we could have a revision of that catalog on
printed cards it seems to me it would be a great help in the work of
library extension as well as to smaller libraries which have little
cataloging force--where the librarian has to be cataloger.
CHAIRMAN: I thought perhaps enough would be interested in this to raise
the question in such a way that the Publishing Board would take it up.
It may be cards are in existence that might be reprinted for this work.
Miss AMBROSE: There is a supplement to this catalog just about ready to
come out. Would that include new editions or simply new books?
Mr. FLETCHER: The matter has been put off to such a large extent that
the State Library at Albany has undertaken to publish this supplement;
but it has been delayed. They intend to print it for their own state
use, but allow the Publishing Board to distribute it to other places. As
to a revision, I do not know whether it has been undertaken. I think
that the original edition was not electrotyped, and that there are no
plates existing to reprint it from.
CHAIRMAN: I will read a question from the Hartford Public Library on the
arrangement of author, editor and translator in a card catalog--whether
to be put in one alphabet or arranged separately?
Miss CRAWFORD: That hits upon a very practical experience which we had
in Dayton. We arranged the works of an author under the author's own
works; then the author as editor; and then author as joint author; and
then the author as translator; alphabeting by the word which happened to
follow the name of the author at the top of the line. We tried that for
three or four years, and at the end of that time we ourselves in our own
use of the catalog were so continually running up against our own
arrangement as a thing which we never used and which was a constant
blunder to us that last year we set about rearranging all the authors so
as to bring them in one alphabeting order by the first word of the
title, regardless of whether it was as author, editor or compiler. Of
course when translator or editor of a specific person's work, that entry
was placed after the others.
Mr. FLETCHER: That is our practice, after having used the other for some
time. We now undertake to put all the works of an author in a general
series, whether he is author, or editor, or collector, or whatever it
be, if the work is significant as his work. We put those all in one
alphabet, as if there was no such addition after his name, and then we
put at the end the two notes which are in the nature of cross-reference.
If a man is translator of somebody else's work we cannot very well put
those in as his works. Everything else we put in one series.
Mr. PERLEY: In the library of the Institute of Technology, of Boston, we
arranged the authors, joint authors, translators and editors all in one
common alphabet. It seems to me in a library of this kind such an
arrangement is especially good, because the public patrons of the
library never seem to take very kindly to distinctions, however
interesting they may be to the librarians; and it happens very often
that the American translator is a good deal more important to the
American reader than the original author from whom it was translated.
And in the same way a joint author may take equal rank with the author
in the main entry.
Miss CRAWFORD: 1 o: "Enter under highest title unless family name or
lower title is decidedly better known." Will you keep the title in the
vernacular in all cases? For example, will you always say "Fürst von"
instead of the English form, and "Graf von," etc.?
Mr. HANSON: There is a varying practice as to that. I will say for the
Library of Congress, where they are purely titles of honor or minor
noblemen, we use the vernacular; but we have found it advisable for
kings, in fact for sovereigns, to use the designation king, emperor,
pope, etc., in English.
Miss KROEGER: Has anything been said about entering sovereigns and popes
in the vernacular or English form? The rule says, "_May_ be given in the
English form."
Mr. FLETCHER: I think we should generally feel, as Mr. Cutter expresses
it in his rule, that this is a matter of progress; and before long our
library committees will not tolerate "Henry" instead of "Henri" for king
of France, or "Lewis" instead of "Louis." We are in a transition stage,
and this "May be" means that it is considered allowable while we are in
the transition stage to use the English form instead of the vernacular.
But give names of sovereigns in the vernacular. The same thing is true
of names of cities. Some librarians are leading us a little and giving
Wien for Vienna.
Mr. PERLEY: It seems to me the use of the English form would largely
depend upon the length of the custom. I think for the names of the
Italian cities which have been given common English names since the
Middle Ages we are justified in using the English forms, and the names
of persons in the same way.
Adjourned without day.