_Of certain disputes between Rubruquis and the Saracens and Idolaters, at
the Court of Mangu-khan, respecting Religion_.
Next day I was brought to the court, and some of the chief secretaries of
the khan came to me, one of whom was a Moal, who is cup-bearer to the khan,
and the rest were Saracens. These men demanded on the part of the khan,
wherefore I had come there? To this I answered, as I had done before, that
I came to Sartach, who sent me to Baatu, and he had ordered me to the khan,
to whom I had nothing to say on the part of any man, unless I should speak
the words of God if he would hear them, for the khan should know best what
Baatu had written. Then they demanded what words of God I would speak to
the khan, thinking I meant to prophecy prosperous things as others had
done. To this I answered, "If ye would that I speak the words of God unto
the khan, get me an interpreter." They said they had sent for him, but
urged me to speak by the present one, as they would understand me
perfectly. I therefore said, "This is the word of God, to whom much is
given, much will be required at his hands; and to whom much is forgiven, he
ought the more to love God. To Manga I would say, that God hath given much;
for the power and riches which he enjoys, come not from the idols of the
Tuinians, but from the omnipotent God who hath made heaven and earth, in
whose hands are all kingdoms and dominions, and who transferreth them from
nation to nation for the sins of men; wherefore if he love God, it will go
well with him, but if otherwise, God will require all things at his hands,
even to the utmost farthing." Then they asked if I had been in Heaven, that
I should know the commandments of God? I said no, but that God hath given
them from Heaven to holy men, and had at length descended from Heaven to
earth to teach us, and that we had those things in the Scriptures, and
could judge from their works whether men kept the commandments of God or
disobeyed them. They then asked if I meant to say that Mangu-khan did not
keep the commandments of God? To this I answered, "When I shall have a
proper interpreter and am permitted, I shall then recite the commandments
of God before Mangu, and he shall be his own judge, whether he hath kept or
disobeyed them." Upon this, they went and told Mangu, that I said he was an
idolater and Tuinian, and kept not the commandments of God. Next day Mangu
sent one of his secretaries, saying, "Ye are here Christians, Mahometans,
and Tuinians, wherefore the khan desires that ye will all come together and
make comparison of your opinions, that he may know the truth." To this I
answered, "Blessed be God that hath put this in the heart of the khan; but
our Scriptures command the servants of God not to be contentious, but meek
unto all. Wherefore I am ready, without strife or contention, to render a
true account of the faith and hope of the Christians to every one who may
require to be informed." They wrote down my words and brought them to the
khan.
Next day, another message came from the khan, desiring again to know on
what account I had come to his court; to which I answered, that this might
be known from the letters of Bantu. But they said that these letters were
lost, and the khan had forgotten their contents, and would know of me.
Somewhat emboldened by this, I said, "The duty and office of our religion
is to preach the gospel unto all. Wherefore, having heard of the fame of,
the Mongals, I desired to come to them; and hearing that Sartach had become
a Christian, I directed my journey to him, and my sovereign the king of the
French sent him letters containing good words of friendship, testifying
what men we were, and requesting we might be permitted to remain with the
people of Moal That Sartach had sent us to Baatu, and he had ordered us to
Mangu-khan, whom we had entreated and still do entreat to suffer us to
stay." They wrote all this, and made a report of it to the khan. On the
morrow he sent again that he knew we had no message for him, but came to
pray for him as other priests did, but desired to know if any of our
ambassadors had ever been in their country, or any of theirs in our parts.
Then I declared unto them all I knew respecting David and Friar Andrew, all
of which was put down in writing and laid before Mangu. They came back,
saying, "Our lord the khan thinks you have staid long here, and his
pleasure is that you return into your own country; but he desires to know
whether you would conduct his ambassadors along with you." To this I
answered, that I dared not to carry his ambassadors beyond his own
dominions, as a warlike nation dwelt between their country and ours,
between the sea and the mountains, and being only a poor monk, I could not
take upon me to be their guide. This they likewise set down in writing and
carried to the khan.
The Nestorians were commanded to set down in writing all that they would
speak in favour of the Christian religion; and they wrote out a chronicle
from the creation of the world to the passion of Christ; and passing over
the passion, they spake of the resurrection of the dead, and of the day of
judgment. Finding many things wrong, I pointed them out, and we wrote out
the creed or symbol. Asking them how they meant to proceed in the
conference, they said they meant to begin with the Saracens; but I
dissuaded them from that, because, as they agreed with us in the belief of
one only God, they would assist against the Tuinians. I then pointed out to
them the original of idolatry in the world; and they desired me to explain
these things before Mangu, and then to let them speak, because I should
find it difficult and tedious to speak by an interpreter. I then proposed
to try them, by taking the side of the Tuinians, while they should defend
the opinions of the Christians; but they knew not how to prove any thing,
except merely by quoting their Scriptures. To this I said, that these men
believed not in our Scriptures, and would oppose them by advancing contrary
opinions and positions from those books which they accounted holy. Then I
desired that they would allow me to speak first; since if I were overcome
they would be permitted to speak, whereas if they were confuted, I would be
refused a hearing, and to this they consented.
All things being arranged, we convened at our oratory, and Mangu-khan sent
three of his secretaries, a Christian, a Saracen, and a Tuinian, to be
judges of the controversy. It was first proclaimed, "This is the order of
Mangu-khan, and none dare say that the commandment of God is otherwise. Let
none speak contentiously, or use injurious words to one another, or make
any tumult whereby this business may be hindered, upon pain of death."
There was a great assembly, as every party had convened the wisest of their
sect, and many others came flocking around to listen; but all were silent.
The Christians set me in the middle, willing that I should contend with the
Tuinians; who murmured against Mangu, as no khan had ever thus endeavoured
to search into their secrets. Yet they opposed one from Kathay to me, who
had his interpreter, while I had the son of the goldsmith to interpret my
words. The Kathayan said to me, "Friend! if you be put to a nonplus, who
must seek a wiser than thou art?" To this I made no reply. Then he demanded
whether I would dispute as to how the world was made, or as to what became
of the souls after death? For they were desirous to begin with these
questions, as they held them for the strongest in their doctrines, all the
Tuinians following the heresy of the Manicheans, believing in a good and a
bad principle, and they all believe that souls pass from body to body. In
confirmation of this, the goldsmith told me they had brought a person from
Kathay, who, by the size of his body, appeared to be only three years old,
yet was capable of reasoning, and knew how to write, and who affirmed that
he had passed through three several bodies. Even one of the wisest of the
Nestorians demanded of me whether the souls of brutes could fly to any
place after death where they should not be compelled to labour.
To the before-mentioned question of the Kathayan, I answered: "Friend, this
ought hot to be the commencement of our conference. All things are of God,
who is the fountain and head of us all; and therefore we ought first to
speak concerning God, of whom you think otherwise than you ought, and Mangu
desires to know which of us hath the better belief." The arbitrators
allowed this to be reasonable, and I proceeded: "We firmly believe that
there is but one God in perfect unity; what believe you?" He said, "Fools
say there is but one God, but wise men say there are many. There are great
lords in your country, and here is still a greater, even Mangu-khan. So it
is of the Gods, as in divers countries there are divers gods." To this I
answered: "You make a bad comparison between God and men; for in this way
every mighty man might be called a God in his own country." And when I
meant to have dissolved the similitude, he prevented me, by asking, "What
manner of God is yours, who you say is but one?" I answered: "Our God,
beside whom there is no other, is omnipotent, and therefore needeth not the
help of any other; whereas all have need of his help. It is not so with
men, as no man can do all things; wherefore there must be many lords on
earthy as no one can support all. God is omniscient, or knoweth all things;
and therefore hath no need of any counsellor, for all wisdom is from him.
God is perfectly good; and needs not therefore any good from us. In God we
live and move and have our being. Such is our God, and you must not hold
that there is any other." "It is not so," said he; "for there is one
highest in heaven, whose origin or generation we know not, and there are
ten under him, and on earth they are infinite in number." To this he would
have added other fables. I asked him respecting the highest God, of whom he
had spoken, whether he were omnipotent, or if any of the inferior Gods were
so? And fearing to answer this, he demanded, "Why, since our God was
perfectly good, he had made the half of all things evil?" To this I
answered, that this was false; for whosoever maketh any evil is no God, and
all things whatsoever are good. At this all the Tuiuians were astonished,
and set it down in writing as false or impossible. He then asked me,
"Whence cometh evil?" "You ask amiss," said I, "for you ought first to
inquire what evil is, before you ask whence it comes: But let us return to
the first question, whether do you believe that any God is omnipotent? and
when that is discussed, I will answer whatever you may demand." On this he
sat a long time without speaking, and the judges appointed by the khan
commanded him to make answer. At length he said, that no God was
omnipotent; on which all the Saracens broke out into great laughter. When
silence was restored, I said, "None of your gods, therefore, can save you
in all dangers, since chances may happen in which they have no power.
Besides, no man can serve two masters; how, therefore, can you serve so
many Gods in heaven and in earth?" The auditory decreed that he should make
answer to this, but he held his peace.
When I was about to have propounded reasons to prove the truth of the
divine essence, and to have explained the doctrine of the Trinity, the
Nestorians alleged that I had said quite enough, and that now they meant to
speak; so I gave place to them. When, therefore, they would have disputed
with the Saracens, these men said that they agreed to the truth of the law
and the gospel of the Christian, and would not dispute with them in any
thing, and even confessed that they beg from God in their prayers that they
may die the death of the Christians. There was among the idolaters a priest
of the sect of the Jugurs, who believe in one God, and yet make idols. With
this man the Nestorians talked much, shewing all things till the coming of
Christ to judgment, and explaining the Trinity to him and the Saracens by
similitudes. All of them hearkened to their harangue without attempting to
make any contradiction; yet none of them said that they believed and would
become Christians. The conference was now broken up. The Nestorians and
Saracens sang together with a loud voice, and the Tuinians held their
peace; and afterwards they all drank together most plentifully.