What do you compute the expense of statute labour at?—I never have made
any guess at it; for two reasons, statute labour is so difficult to
guess at; and the proportion given to the turnpike roads is so different
in different parts of the country, under local Acts, and under the
general Act; but in the roads under my management it amounts to about
five per cent. of the toll-duty.
Mr. _James MᶜAdam_, Examined.
Have you in any instance tried the experiment of converting paved
streets into roads?—I have in several instances taken up small pieces of
pavement that I found upon the several road trusts, and substituted
road. In the town of Stamford I took a piece up of considerable extent,
which is now road instead of the pavement.
What has been the effect of the conversion of the pavement into
road?—The expense has considerably diminished, and facility of
travelling very considerably increased.
Has any suggestion been made to you of converting the pavement of any
part of the streets of London into road?—I have been ordered, by the
Parliamentary commissioners having charge of Westminster Bridge, to
prepare an estimate and report, with a view to convert that pavement
into a broken stone road, which documents I have furnished; and I have
reason to believe that the same will be immediately carried into effect.
I have been also directed by the trustees and proprietors of St. James’s
square, to prepare (which I have done) the same documents, with a view
to substitute a broken stone road in St. James’s square, in lieu of the
present pavement.
What is your opinion of the effect that would be found from its being
carried into execution in all the streets of London, as to the reduction
of expense, and benefit generally to the public?—I consider that the
expense would be most materially reduced; the convenience of passing
over the surface, there could be no doubt, would be generally
facilitated, and made more convenient, particularly in the great leading
streets, such as Piccadilly, Pall-mall, Parliament street and Whitehall,
and others of that description; the expense of the same weight of stone
now put upon those streets as pavement would be obtained at infinitely
less expense, in a different form, for the purpose of road-making.
Is it your plan to raise the present pavement, and convert that pavement
into materials for making the road, or to bring new materials and
dispose of the pavement?—For Westminster Bridge I recommended to the
trustees to sell the present pavement, because as long as pavements
continue to be generally used, stone in that shape and size will always
be valuable, and the same weight of granite I could obtain for the
formation of the road over the bridge at 10_s._ 6_d._ per ton, the
present pavement being worth a guinea per ton; but were the streets of
London generally taken up, pavement would of course become of less
value, and it might be broken for the formation of the roads.
Is that pavement of a quality calculated to make good roads?—The best
material in the kingdom.
What proportion would the pavement now used in the streets of London
bear to the materials necessary to the formation of the roads?—There
would be sufficient for the formation of a strong durable road in the
first instance; and I estimate that a supply of materials for the future
care of the road, for a considerable time, would be left.
Would that answer in all the small streets of the metropolis as well as
for the large and open streets?—I think not so well in the very narrow
streets, which are liable to water, and where, from the width of the
street, the thoroughfare must necessarily be upon one given spot. I beg,
however, to observe, that the thoroughfare in those streets is extremely
small.
Would the dust be increased or diminished by this alteration?—I
consider, that upon a well made stone road, with the same care of
cleansing and watering that is given to the streets, that the annoyance
from dust would be infinitely less; and a road is more susceptible of
retaining the water than pavement.
What would be the proportion of the annual expense between the paved
street and the road?—Taking seven years, during which time I calculate
that the pavement gets worn out, I should think the annual expense of
the road would not be one fifth part, because in that seven years the
whole value of the pavement is nearly lost.
What would be the effect produced upon the necessity of raising the road
for the purpose of alteration of the pipes and other works under the
street?—At present, when this operation is necessary, a paviour, whose
wages are from five to six shillings a-day, is required. Were the
streets converted into stone roads, a labourer at eighteen-pence a-day
would perform the same service; and by due care in laying the materials
on one side, and the earth on the other, the injury to the road would be
extremely small, and the spot would very soon become obliterated;
whereas in raising a part of a paved street it is quite impossible ever
to unite the piece so raised with the rest of the pavement.
Supposing the pavement to be converted into a road, in that case, would
it be necessary, when any pipe was repairing, to stop up the way to
prevent carriages and horses passing?—Certainly not more so than at
present, as that circumstance must always depend upon the width of the
street. In very narrow streets, where the pipe lies in the centre, a
large opening is necessary; it would follow as a matter of course that
the street must be stopped; but upon large streets one side would be
left free.
Would not a repair be more rapidly executed, supposing the way to be a
road instead of a street?—Were the streets converted into roads, the
repair of the roads would be almost unknown to the public, and no
stoppage whatever would take place; the repair of such roads would be
limited to a one-inch coat at a time, which would scarcely be known to
persons passing in carriages, and the great inconvenience at present
constantly felt in every part of this large metropolis by the necessity
of repaving the streets would cease.
You assume that the roads for the streets in London must be made with
granite?—Most assuredly, I should never recommend any other material to
be made use of for the roads in the town.
Mr. _William MᶜAdam_, further Examined.
Have you, in the course of your practice, converted any paved street
into a road?—Yes, I have; Fore-street Hill, in Exeter, forms part of
that turnpike trust; it is very steep, and was exceedingly slippery, so
much so, that I never rode on horseback down it myself till it was
converted into a stone road; it has been so for a year or two; it has
answered every purpose, and stood remarkably well, and by being watered
a little in very dry weather, I believe there is less inconvenience
found from dust than when it was paved. I have heard some gentlemen say,
that in coming up that hill with their carriages, it not being above a
furlong and a half or two furlongs in length, they have saved from five
to ten minutes time since it was made road; and I have heard coachmen
say, that when they brought their horses quite cool to the bottom of
that hill, they have been quite in a lather by the time they got to the
top of it, from the terror of the horses in slipping about.
That was when it was paved?—Yes.
What kind of stone do you use for making that road?—The pebble of the
country, picked from the gravel pits.
Have you converted any other part of Exeter from pavement into
road?—There is no other part of Exeter under the care of the trust; but
in consequence of the effect which the Chamber of Exeter saw in
Fore-street, they have broken up a great many of the streets in Exeter,
and, I believe, are proceeding gradually to do them all. In the town of
Newton-Abbot there is a county bridge; the county have broken up the
bridge bands, and converted it in a similar manner.
_John Loudon MᶜAdam_, Esq. further Examined.
Have you, in any instance, made the alteration stated by your sons?—Yes,
I have; I found the suburbs of Bristol were entirely paved when I took
charge of the roads of the district; those suburbs are within the
jurisdiction of the commissioners for the care of turnpike roads; and I
found the expense of paving was very heavy, and the effect very bad, and
I at once took the whole pavement up, and broke the stone that I found
there into a stone road, up to the jurisdiction of the magistrates.
Was that granite stone?—No, a kind of stone called the blue pennet in
that county, and part of a light stone called Brandon Hill stone; both
tolerably good stones: the blue pennet is certainly not so good as
granite; the Brandon Hill stone, when broken, is pretty nearly as good
as granite. But those suburbs having been taken up, and given great
satisfaction the year before last, the magistrates took up half of the
street, called Stoke’s Croft, which is the great entrance of the town
from Gloucestershire. The inhabitants were very much afraid of dust; and
therefore they requested the magistrates not to take up the whole of the
street, but to make an experiment on one half of it, and after a year’s
experiment they consented to the whole being taken up. When I left
Bristol, which is now three months ago, they were busy taking up the
remainder of that street; and I understood it was the intention of the
magistrates to proceed gradually to take up a great number of other
streets in the town.
Do you know what difference it has made in the expense?—That part of the
suburbs that was lifted, and laid again with the same stone broken, cost
5_d._ a square yard for doing it. I took up the stone; I had nothing to
purchase; the stone that came out of the streets fully made the road,
and we had a little remaining for repair afterwards, and that operation
cost 5_d._ a square yard; paving, in the city of Bristol, cost 5_s._
6_d._ a square yard when stone is found by the paviour, and I believe
they reckon the laying down to be eighteen-pence of that.
What would be the difference of expense annually between & paved street
and a road?—I think that road required no repair for the first three
years after it was done.
A paved street would require no repair for seven years after it was
done?—I think we repaired it for about a fifth part of the money, when
it required repair, that a pavement would have cost. We seldom find our
streets in Bristol last above three years; the pavements become rugged,
and full of holes, and so on; they are obliged to be taken up, and they
relay them generally once in three years. There is another street in
Bristol which has been taken up, but I cannot recollect the name of it;
it goes from Stoke’s Croft to Kingston; it has been taken up by the
magistrates, not under my direction.
Has any objection been taken by any person to the alteration that has
been made at Bristol?—No, except the alarm that the inhabitants of Stone
Croft had when it was begun to be done, and they got the magistrates to
delay doing more than half of it till they were satisfied that it would
not inconvenience them; and the circumstance of their sending a request
to the magistrates to finish it induces me to believe that they were
very much satisfied with the experiment. Park-street, in Bristol, has
been done in that way for, I think, seventeen years; I was then a
commissioner for watching and paving the streets of Bristol.
Who did it?—It was done at the expense of the commissioners for watching
and paving, at my wish, and I certainly did superintend it, though I had
nothing to do with it more than any other commissioner had. It is a
street many gentlemen know very well; it is a public road from Bristol
to the Park, and very steep; I believe it is a rise of three inches in a
yard, and when paved was so very dangerous and slippery that many
accidents arose from it, and now it is a very good road indeed, and I do
not believe that it cost upon an average, since that alteration, more
than one fourth of what it used to do.
What stone was it paved with before?—Black rock-stone, a species of
limestone.