_Mercurii, 28º die Maij, 1823._
SIR THOMAS BARING, BART.
In the Chair.
_John Loudon MᶜAdam_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
You were formerly a magistrate, and commissioner of the roads in
Scotland, were you not?—I was.
When did you first turn your attention to road making?—I was a
commissioner and trustee of the roads in Scotland from the time of my
return from America in the year 1783; and I naturally turned my
attention to it there, because they had begun about twelve years before
to make the roads turnpike, and they were carrying them on with
considerable activity when I returned from America; and it appeared to
me at that time, and all the time I was trustee, that there was a great
deal of money expended needlessly, and with very little effect, on the
roads, and that of course turned my attention to the cause. I began then
to travel through different parts of the country to inspect the
different managements of different parts of the road, first in Scotland,
and then I went into England. In the year 1798, I came to live in
England, at Bristol. I have no documents to prove my travelling before I
came to reside in England in the year 1798. In 1798 I began to make it a
sort of business. Without saying to any one what my object was, I
travelled all over the country in different parts. I have a list of such
of those places I travelled to that I happened to keep memorandums of,
but I cannot possibly say all the places I travelled to.
How long were you occupied in travelling for the purpose of obtaining
information for the construction of roads?—It was only occasional
travelling of course. I had some other occupations and private affairs
to look into. I began in the year 1798 to travel as often as I had
leisure and convenience down to the time I took the charge of the
Bristol roads, down to the year 1816, the beginning of 1816 or latter
end of the year 1815.
What was the result of your observations and inquiry of the state of the
roads?—I found the roads were extremely bad in all parts of Great
Britain, as far back as the year 1798, and that very little improvement
took place in them between that time and the year 1815, which I
attributed to the ignorance of the persons who had the charge of them,
the ignorance of the surveyors, the total want of science.
What were the objections which you found?—I found the materials so
applied that the roads were all loose, and carriages, instead of passing
over the roads, ploughed them; that was the general fault of the roads,
and the loose state of the materials, I apprehend, was owing to the bad
selection, the bad appropriation, and the unskilful laying of them. I
came to that conclusion first, from observing that in some parts of the
country where things were better managed, there were better roads; and I
instanced the roads between Cross and Bridgewater, in Somersetshire;
there I saw a better road than in most other parts of the country, and
having inquired into their management, I found that they prepared their
materials better. The next improvement that I saw in roads, was at
Kendal, in Westmoreland, where I think the same result proceeded from
the same cause. That led me to the conclusion, that under a better
system of management a better road would be produced; and having gone to
every part of the country, and inquired into the manner in which they
made the roads, I formed a theory in my own mind. This theory I got
leave to put in practice by being appointed to the care of the Bristol
roads, of which I was a commissioner in January 1816.
Did you make any inquiry into the expenditure of money upon those roads,
that you found in so bad a state?—I did.
What was the result of that inquiry?—I generally found that the expense
was in proportion to the badness of the roads, not to their good
quality, but as the roads were bad and badly managed the expense
increased, and I found few roads that were not deeply in debt and in
distress for money.
In what did the improvident expenditure consist?—I think principally in
carting great quantities of unprepared materials, and putting them into
the roads where they were not wanted; that was one source of needless
expense; and then the materials being put in so bad a state did not
last; the road went soon to pieces. I believe there was a great deal of
other kind of prodigality, of a worse character than carelessness.
Did you find a larger quantity of materials put in the road than was
necessary?—I did, in most instances; a much larger quantity than was
necessary.
Did you discover, in any of the roads, that there were materials
sufficient, if raised, to make a good road, without putting on the
additional, quantity?—In a very great number, I think the greater
number, I found a sufficient quantity of materials for giving them one
good making, without any further addition.
Were these the whole of your observations on the state of the roads?—No.
It is not very easy to explain to gentlemen, exactly, the particulars
that I know to be wrong in roads; I found the water-ways, and things
connected with keeping the roads dry, exceedingly neglected in the
country.
Be so good as to state what defects you observed in the construction of
the roads, besides those you have already mentioned?—I think the
water-ways were extremely neglected, and the roads in general were
covered with water, and many of them standing in wet. It was a practice
formerly to dig a trench when they made the new road. There was a hollow
way, and a great deal of the bad quality of roads in general was owing
to the circumstance that the road was standing in water. I think that
was one very great error formerly; but the roads were made upon no
principle; there seemed to be no object; the persons who made them did
not seem to understand there was some object to be gained; they had no
other idea of mending a road than bringing a great quantity of material,
and shooting it on the ground. When a road got into entire disrepair,
the next thing was to bring a quantity of the same kind of unprepared
material, and to shoot it upon the road.
Did you find that they made use of bad material when a better was to be
procured?—I found that to be very universally the case, that the tops of
the quarries, and that to be easily procured, was taken in general, and
the best stone left behind. I am afraid that is too much the custom in
the country still.
Did you find they put these materials on the road in an unprepared and
unfit state?—I did; they were not broken, nor in many cases cleaned.
Have you any thing further to state with regard to the construction of
the road?—No; I do not recollect any thing further I can state.
What inquiry did you make into the management of the funds of the
different trusts?—I made it a business to inquire generally of the
surveyors, workmen, and people on the roads, as to the expense of
materials, cartage, day-labour, and then I took what pains I could with
gentlemen of the country, to inquire into the state of the funds: with
surveyors and other officers of trusts, I found a jealousy and an
unwillingness every where to give me information. An unauthorized
individual finds it extremely difficult to procure information of that
sort, and I found it so; a very great unwillingness to inform.
What class of persons did you find in the situation of surveyors on the
road?—Always, I think, almost without exception, very low people, many
of them old servants, ruined tradesmen, people without that kind of
energy and character which I think is absolutely necessary for such a
service.
Did you make any inquiry into the mode of the performance of statute
labour?—Yes; I inquired very particularly about that, and I found the
statute labour, when called for, was sent by the farmer to the roads,
but the people seldom did above half a day’s work; and though the farmer
lost the service of his servants and team, the public did not get it; it
was a heavier oppression on the country than benefit to the roads.
Did you find, in collecting the materials, that there was any
deficiency, or any mismanagement, on the part of those who superintended
it?—I had very great reason to believe, that in most instances the
country was imposed on.
Have you any knowledge of it?—No, I have no knowledge; I had no legal
means of taking such measures as should have made me so certain as to be
able to give evidence to it.
What extent of turnpike road is there in England and Wales?—On my first
examination before a Committee of this House, I stated my opinion to be
25,000 miles; but I see, from a corrected state of the returns made to
parliament, which I made out, that the number is 24,599 miles.
Do you know what sum is annually expended upon these roads?—The annual
income has been ascertained by the same returns to be 1,282,715_l._
Can you state what part of the sum goes to the payment of the interest
of the debt, and what is applied to the improvement of the road?—The
mortgage debt in the kingdom is 6,036,502_l._; but there is a large sum
due to treasurers, and balances of interest, which is also bearing
interest, amounting to 569,041_l._ The whole debt that bears interest is
6,605,543_l._