And have under your care a considerable district of the turnpike roads
in that neighbourhood?—Yes, about one hundred and eighty miles of road
in that neighbourhood.
How long has your attention been particularly directed to the state of
the public roads of the kingdom generally, and the means of their
improvement?—About twenty-five years.
Are you a professional civil engineer?—No.
Be pleased to state to the Committee the general state of the turnpike
roads at the time you first directed your attention to them, about
twenty years ago?—I think the state of the roads twenty years ago, was
worse generally than at present, and in particular places much worse. If
the Committee would indulge me, I would mention what first led me to
these considerations. On my first arriving from America in the year
1783, at the time the roads were making in Scotland (their Turnpike Acts
being in operation about twenty years at that time,) very many of their
roads were unmade. I was then appointed a commissioner of the roads, and
had occasion in that capacity to see a great deal of road-work.
Where?—In Scotland. This first led me to inquire into the general method
of road-making, and the expense of it. Since that period, I have been
mostly in Bristol, where I was also appointed a commissioner of the
roads; the very defective state of which could not fail to attract my
attention. I was induced to offer myself to the commissioners, to take
charge of the roads as a surveyor, because I found it impossible for any
individual commissioner to get the roads put into a situation of being,
mended with any prospect of success; and no individual could incur the
expense of making experiments on a great scale. The roads of Bristol
were accordingly put under my direction in the month of January 1816.
That was when you were appointed surveyor?—Yes, I have travelled at
various times, during the lost twenty years, to ascertain which are the
best roads, and which the best means of road-making over the whole
kingdom, from Inverness in Scotland to the Land’s End in Cornwall. I
have obtained all the information that an unauthorized person could
expect to receive. In the course of travelling through the country, I
have generally found the roads in a very defective state, certainly much
worse in particular parts of the country than in others; and in
particular counties I have found some parts of the roads much worse than
in other parts of the same county. The defects of the roads appear to me
to proceed from various causes, but principally from the large use of a
mixture of clay and chalk and other matters, that imbibe water, and are
affected by frost. Such roads become loose in wet weather, so as to
allow the wheels of carriages to displace the materials, and thereby
occasion the roads to be rough and rutty. More pains, and much more
expense, have been bestowed on the roads of late years, but without, in
my opinion, producing any adequate effect, from want of skill in the
executive department. I consider the roads in South Wales, in
Monmouthshire, in Cornwall, in Devonshire, in Herefordshire, in part of
Hampshire, in part of Oxfordshire, and some part of Gloucestershire, are
managed with the least skill, and consequently, at the heaviest expense.
The paved roads of Lancashire appear to be very unprofitable, and very
expensive. I shall mention to the Committee a few roads which I think in
a better condition and under a better system of management. Eastward of
Bridgewater in Somersetshire, near Kendal in Westmoreland, and near
North Allerton, in Yorkshire, the roads appear to be in a much better
state than in other parts of the kingdom; and there is a striking
difference in the moderate rate of their tolls, which I have always
found most moderate where the roads are best managed. I consider the
reason of the roads in those parts being in a better condition than in
other places, is from greater skill and attention being paid to the
preparation of the materials and the manner laying them on the roads.
Does the superiority of roads, in certain places that you have
mentioned, arise from their better materials in those
neighbourhoods?—No; the same material is found in many parts of the
kingdom with much worse roads.
Then, in general, you impute the badness of the roads solely to the
applying of the materials?—Yes.
And also to the formation of the roads?—That I consider as part of the
application of the materials.
Has there prevailed of late years a general spirit of improvement, in
different parts of the country, with regard to the roads?—I think there
has, and particularly in the west country.
What instances have come within your own knowledge?—The roads
immediately round the city of Bristol to the extent of 148 miles, round
Bath to the extent of 49 miles, between Cirencester and Bath to the
amount of 32 miles, the roads of nine trusts in the eastern parts of
Sussex amounting to 97 miles, at Epsom in Surrey amounting to 20 miles,
at Reading in Berkshire six miles, amounting in the whole to 352 miles,
have been put into a very good condition; in addition to which, there
are now under repair, five trusts in Wiltshire and Berkshire, amounting
to 108 miles; six trusts in Middlesex, Cambridge and Huntingdon,
amounting to 91 miles; six trusts in Devonshire, Buckinghamshire and
Glamorganshire, amounting to 129 miles; making a total of 328 miles
under repair. These are roads that have been mended, or are now mending,
under directions which I have given, or which have been given by my
family.
You are not particularly acquainted with the improvements taking place
under the management of other persons?—Not particularly; but I have some
knowledge of some of them from circumstances.
You have not taken under observation the great road to Holyhead?—No;
that I understand is a new road. You asked me with respect to the spirit
of improvement; I would wish to explain in what way I think that is
proceeding. I have been sent for and consulted by 34 different sets of
commissioners, and as many different trusts, and in 13 counties, to the
extent of 637 miles, all of whom have been making improvements, and I
have had many sub-surveyors instructed and sent to various parts of the
country, at the request of commissioners; many surveyors also in the
neighbourhood where improvements are making, have availed themselves of
the opportunity of having instruction. Thus the surveyors of Southampton
and that neighbourhood have attended to what is doing at Salisbury and
Wilton; thus the surveyors at Kingston and Guildford have profited by
the improvements at Epsom in Surrey.
On which road are the 20 miles that you mentioned at Epsom?—From Epsom
to Tooting, and then across the country to Kingston. Several surveyors
near Reading in Berkshire have imitated, with considerable success, the
improvements on that road. Mr. Clay, who has contracted for the repair
of the Kingsland road near London, engaged a young man who was in my
office at Bristol, Mr. Marshal, whom he sent afterwards to Leeds in
Yorkshire. It has been my study to give every facility to spread
information.
Has your attention been directed to the roads in the neighbourhood of
London; and can you state to the Committee whether any corresponding
improvement has taken place in this district?—I think less improvement
has taken place round London than in the country. On the new Surrey
roads the example set by the pieces of road made at Blackfriars and
Westminster bridges has induced a little amendment; the materials have
been more carefully broken, and they have continued to use the hammers,
rakes and other tools which were recommended to them; but the general
improvement is unimportant: and I am not aware that any alteration has
taken place in the system of expenditure, and the mode of being supplied
with materials, or in employing more competent surveyors.
From the experience you have had in the improvements that have taken
place, have you found that these have been attended generally, with an
increase or diminution of expense?—In general the expense must be
diminished by the improvements. The repairs of one hundred and
forty-eight miles round Bristol, and many expensive permanent
improvements and alterations, have been made in the last three years,
during which a floating debt of upwards 1,400_l._ has been paid off, a
considerable reduction of the principal debt has been made, and a
balance of a considerable amount is remaining in the hands of the
treasurer, applicable to further alterations, or to the payment of part
of the debt, at the discretion of the commissioners.