_Martis, 2º die Martij, 1819._
EDWARD PROTHEROE, ESQUIRE,
In the Chair.
_Charles Johnson_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
You are surveyor and superintendent of mail coaches under the Post
Master General?—Yes.
How long have you held that office?—Not twelve months yet.
Has your attention been directed, in the execution of the duties of that
office, to the state of the turnpike roads throughout the kingdom?—I
have given a general attention to the subject, and I have had occasion,
of course, to give particular attention to it, when complaints have been
made of loss of time.
In what state of repair do you consider the turnpike roads to be,
generally throughout the kingdom?—I certainly (as far as I have had an
opportunity of inspecting them) consider, that almost all the roads
might be improved; but there are very few instances in which I should
have thought it necessary to advise the Post Master General to
interfere, except in the more immediate neighbourhood of London.
It is not the practice of the Post-office to interfere in the mode you
mention, by indictment, unless the evil has arisen to a very great
pitch?—Not until it has arisen to a very considerable evil.
Do you consider that the general defective state of the road arises from
any local disadvantages, or from mismanagement in regard to the funds,
or the application of materials?—That question involves so many
considerations, that I hardly know how to give an answer to it; but I
think, that in general one may observe a great want of that skill in
forming the road and keeping it in repair, which is very obvious in some
parts of the country.
Do you consider that the defects you have mentioned in the neighbourhood
of London, arise from any local disadvantages, or from the roads been
worse managed?—It is generally understood that in the neighbourhood of
London they have not so good materials to repair the roads with, being
chiefly gravel; but I think I may say, that there is certainly a want of
attention and of care.
Have you known instances in the neighbourhood of London where better
roads have been obtained by superior management?—In the early part of
the winter we were under such great difficulties with respect to the
Exeter mail coach, that I was under the necessity of applying to the
Egham trust. It was at that time reported to me, that the whole town of
Egham had been covered with gravel unsifted, eight or nine inches deep
from side to side; the consequence of that was, that the mail coach lost
ten, fifteen, or twenty minutes every night. We were given afterwards to
understand that the commissioners had put that particular road under the
care of Mr. MᶜAdam, and at this time I have no sort of occasion whatever
to complain of it.
Generally speaking, do you consider that the mails are detained more by
the bad state of the roads in the neighbourhood of London than
elsewhere?—They certainly have more difficulty in passing to and from
London for the first fifty or sixty miles, than in almost any other part
of the country. It is in the nights we have the heaviest weights, and
therefore it is very desirable that the roads near town should be rather
better, than worse than others.
Has your attention been particularly directed to the state of the roads
in other parts of the kingdom lately?—I travelled a considerable
distance last autumn in the north of England. Certainly I considered the
roads that I passed over there, to be very superior in general to what
they are in the first hundred miles from the metropolis. Subsequently to
that, I have had occasion to travel throughout North Wales, and I gave
particular attention to the Holyhead line of road.
By what road?—By Coventry. The roads which are found in North Wales are
remarkably good, and in my humble opinion, show great science in the
formation of them. The new roads I mean. The materials in that country
are of course very good. On this side of Birmingham, which is also the
road to Liverpool, there is great occasion to complain, particularly
from Dunchurch to Daventry. At this time that road is in a very
neglected state, very heavy, narrow, and blocked up by banks of drift. I
have had occasion to apply to that trust, but I do not learn that any
thing has been done.
Have you found the system of indictment afford any effectual remedy for
the evils which you have had cause to observe in that way?—I think we
have. But there have been very few indictments preferred for some years
past; the postmaster general not thinking it right to press upon the
districts during the season of agricultural distress. I should say, we
do not consider that any reason, at present, for abstaining.
Have you experienced from the commissioners, a disposition, generally,
to attend to such complaints as you have found occasion to make?—Such
applications as I have had occasion to make appear to have been very
well received; but I cannot say, that in many instances the roads have
been much improved. I will add to this answer, that I lately passed over
the road from Oxford through Henley to London; and although that is one
of the roads complained much of, it is certainly, at this time, in a
very improper state.
In such cases do you not follow up your measures by stronger
proceedings, by indictment?—I think that in this case it would be
necessary to renew our applications, and perhaps to proceed by
indictment; but I have considered it prudent not to interfere, chiefly
in contemplation of the proceedings of this Committee.
From what you have seen of the new roads in Wales, do you not conceive
that nearly all the turnpike roads in England are capable of very
considerable improvement, by an application of equal skill in the
disposition of the materials employed upon them?—I certainly do.
Mr. _William Waterhouse_, called in; and Examined.
You keep the Swan-with-two-Necks in Lad-lane?—I belong to the premises;
I don’t keep the house; I am the coachmaster.
You are the proprietor of many mail and other coaches?—I am.
As the proprietor of mail and stage coaches, has your attention been
directed to the state of the roads over which they travel?—Yes, it has.
Inform the Committee whether you think the roads are in such a state of
repair as they might be, under proper management, with the advantages
they possess?—Taking them generally, I think they are not.
Do you consider that the amount of the tolls at present received would
be sufficient to place them in a state of good repair, under proper
management?—From what information I have been able to obtain of the sums
which the gates are let for upon several trusts, it is my opinion that
the money so received is quite sufficient to put them in a very good
state. For instance, there is one trust, which is called the Daventry
trust, leading from Old Stratford to Dunchurch; their tolls, I
understand, produce more than 100_l._ a mile per annum. Very little
improvement has been made in that trust; and the roads are very unsafe,
and in a bad condition altogether.
Do you consider that that arises from want of proper materials, or want
of proper skill in making use of them?—From both. The materials that
they have in that neighbourhood, in my opinion, are not good; and the
people that they employ upon the roads are not equal to the task, and
therefore they are very much neglected. The surveyors and the men that
work under them are insufficient.
Do you know of any instances where similar disadvantages have been
surmounted by proper skill and ingenuity?—I believe I can state that
upon one particular trust that has been the case. I believe they call it
the Hockliffe trust. It is but a short distance, but very great
improvements have been made upon it. The great improvements that have
been made there, I am informed by several of the commissioners, have
been done through their skilful and attentive surveyors. They have
improved that trust very much indeed. I believe I can mention another
road out of London that has been much improved, I mean the Essex road,
(their surveyor being a clever man, and competent to understand his
business,) between Whitechapel church and Brentwood.
Are there any particular defects in the management of the roads
generally, which you think might be remedied, that you can point out to
the Committee?—In the first place, there may be great improvements by
the proper formation of the roads. I know, in some places, particularly
from here down to Colney, where there is a clayey bottom, and upon that
line of road there are a great many land springs; those springs
frequently work up through the gravel, and injure the road very
materially. When that is the case I consider that they should
under-drain the road, and take away these land springs, which would be
the means of having the roads firm and hard, much harder than they are
now.
Is it not a common defect to place the gravel on the road without being
sufficiently sifted or washed?—Very much so.
Do you not consider it as a bad system, likewise, to place the gravel so
much in the centre of the road, thereby rendering it of too great
convexity?—Yes, certainly. I think it is laid generally too thick and
too high in the middle. There is no necessity for the roads being
rounded so much.
Have you known any accidents to have arisen from the steepness of the
road?—Yes; several accidents with my coaches, as well as those of other
people, in consequence of the road being laid so very high in the
middle.
Is not that shape of the road likewise attended with a disadvantage in
the draft of the carriage?—I consider it so, inasmuch as it flings the
weight too much on one side.
Is not a great loss sustained by the proprietors of stage coaches, in
consequence of the badness of the roads, in the wearing out of their
horses?—Yes; particularly so the first fifty or sixty miles from London.
With regard to the performance of time by the mail coaches, do you find
that you labour under greater difficulty on the roads near London, than
on those at a greater distance from town?—I am certain we do. It
requires a greater quantity of horses to perform the duty, and, in my
opinion, it requires ten horses to perform the same number of miles for
the first fifty out of London, that might be done by eight, with the
same speed, beyond that distance.
Is there any difference in the value of the horses used near town and at
a distance from it?—I can buy horses at 15_l._ a piece that will perform
the duty, at a distance from London, equal to those that we are obliged
to give 30_l._ a piece for, on the average, for the work near town.
Are you in the habit of working coaches to a greater than fifty miles
from London?—Not at this time; I have worked coaches as far as one
hundred miles distance from London, and I always found there that eight
horses would perform as many miles as ten, the first fifty miles out of
London.
Have not the tolls very much increased of late years under new acts of
parliament?—It is my opinion that the tolls generally have doubled
within these last fifteen years.
Have the roads improved in any degree in the same proportion?—No, they
have not.
Have you calculated the average rate per mile which a coach with four
horses pays for toll?—I have: It is my opinion that the average amount
throughout the kingdom is 3½_d._ per mile; it was above 3_d._ when I
took them above twelve months ago.
Do you find that the horses wear out in a much shorter space of time, in
working coaches within the first fifty miles from London, than they do
lower down?—Yes they do very much. We calculate that our stock of
horses, employed in working the first fifty miles out of London, will
not last more than four years; in the country, at a greater distance, I
believe they calculate that their stock, on an average, will last six
years.
Are you not frequently obliged to put six horses to your coaches, on the
roads from London?—Sometimes that is the case; we do work with six
horses where the roads are bad and heavy. I may say, from the knowledge
I have of one particular road, namely, from London to Birmingham, it
requires twelve horses to perform the same number of miles as eight
horses will do between Birmingham and Holyhead.
How many coach-horses do you keep?—About four hundred.
Are you acquainted with the new roads in North Wales, made by Mr.
Telford?—Yes, I am.
Do you think that three of your horses would draw the Holyhead mail as
easily on those roads as four of them do the same coach on any part of
the road from London to Dunchurch?—I have no doubt about it.
Does that arise from the construction of the road, or nature of the
materials, or both?—Both. The construction of the new road is
extraordinarily good, and the materials also are very good.
Can you state what particular construction those roads are of?—They are
laid in a form sufficiently round to wash themselves, if there is a
shower of rain that comes upon them. They are not very high; and their
excellence consists in the smallness of the convexity. They are in the
best form I have ever seen roads made.
Mr. _William Horne_, called in; and Examined.
You keep the Golden Cross Inn, Charing Cross?—Yes.
You are the proprietor of many mail and stage coaches?—I am.
Your attention of course has been directed to the state of the roads
over which they travel?—It has.
Can you inform the Committee in what state the roads generally are, in
point of goodness?—I think in general they have been better for the last
seven years than formerly, though they are now bad. They are generally
bad, and might be very much improved.
Can you state to the Committee any particular instances of improvement
that have taken place within your own knowledge?—Yes; one between London
and Hounslow, which must be known to every body to have been very bad;
that road has been made good, which was extremely bad before.
Do you consider that the application of the materials upon that road is
at present good?—Yes. It is the better construction of the road,
together with the different materials from what they used formerly,
which have been the means of making that road better. They have brought
chalk and flints from Kent by the canal, and have got them at as small
an expense as gravel; and these have formed a hard well-bound road,
which was formerly bad.
Upon what other roads do your coaches travel?—I will mention one which
is precisely the contrary, the Uxbridge road.
Gravel is usually employed on that?—Solely gravely and the road is very
flat. It is made lower than the fields, which draws the water upon it,
and therefore it cannot be drawn off from it. That is the chief cause of
the road being so bad.
Is it not the practice upon that road to pile up the scrapings or drift
by the side of the road?—It is.
Within your experience, do you consider that the goodness of the roads
is at all in proportion to the local advantages or disadvantages; or
have you found that the skill and experience of the surveyors employed
upon them have effected particular improvements?—They chiefly depend
upon having good surveyors. The Dover road will show that more than any
other road I know of. I can remember that within these seven years, what
was then called “The Sun in the Sands” has been made a very good road.
That road was all loose and sandy: they have drained it, and it is now a
very good road.
Can you state under whose superintendence that road is placed?—Mr.
Collis’s. He is now employed on the Brighton road, effecting the same
sort of improvement; reducing hills, and making the road good.
Do you find that the roads on which your coaches travel, are much worse
in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts?—I find them
worse for coaches near London, but it may be attributed partly to the
greater quantity of travelling near London to what there is in the
country.
Are the horses that you employ in the stages near London of superior
value to those that are employed at a greater distance?—It differs
according to the carriage. I think with the stage coaches, the horses
out of London are considerably more in value than those employed at a
greater distance from London; and as to mail coaches, _vice versa_. In
the country, the day stock of the coaches is very good, but in the night
they work them very badly.
Do you find that your horses that are employed in the stages near
London, wear out sooner than those at a greater distance?—Much sooner, I
should think. I employ about four hundred horses myself, and I am sure I
buy one hundred and fifty a year to support the number, and keep the
stock in order. I consider that my stock wears out fully in three years.
How much longer on an average, will horses last at a distance from
town?—I should think double the time: for these reasons; first, the work
is lighter, and next, the food is better; besides which, the lodging of
them is better; the stables are airy and more healthy; they have not so
often diseases in the country as we have in London.
Are you in the habit of working coaches to any great distance from
London?—I work them half way to Bristol; with Mr. Pickwick of Bath, I
work to Newbury.
Do you know whether the horses that are employed still lower down upon
that road, are considered to have lighter or heavier work?—I should not
keep larger horses for that work myself; I should keep short-legged
horses, because of the hills.
Which are of less value?—Yes.
Speaking generally, if the same skill and management that you have
mentioned in particular districts were generally employed, do you not
think that the roads of England and Wales might be put into a very
perfect state of repair?—I think, that with better direction as to
management, they might be put into a much better state of repair, at the
same cost, than they now are. There is a road, called the North-east
Road (the way that the Edinburgh mail comes,) which is much improved
lately, and without any great expense.
Under whose management is that road?—Of a Mr. Clay. It has been done by
rolling the road, and breaking the gravel to a certain size, not putting
it on too large or too small; and taking care to turn the road well. If
the road is not turned well, it never will be good.
This roller is a late invention, is it not?—It is. It impresses the
gravel, or whatever the material is, into the ground, before the road is
scraped; then they proceed to scrape it and take the slush off; this
rolls down the ruts as well.
And from your experience, you have every reason to believe that it is of
great advantage to the road?—I have worked the Tyburn road, and the
White Cross roads, which were as bad as the Tyburn till this practice
has been introduced.
Do you know any thing of the Reading road, which Mr. MᶜAdam has had the
superintendence of?—It is a very fair road; it is the best piece of road
in that direction.
Can you inform the Committee the weights you are accustomed to carry
upon the different descriptions of carriages, mail coaches, post
coaches, and heavy coaches?—The post coach loaded is 38 cwt. weight; it
is never more than two tons. The mail coach also is not more than two
tons, I should think. As to heavy coaches, I only work two of that
description out of the 40 coaches that are in my own yard; they are so
little used, that they don’t generally weigh more than the post coach;
they don’t carry so much luggage.
What is the weight of the heavy coach?—Not more than the post, because
they don’t carry so much luggage as some of the post coaches. I reckon
12 passengers one ton, coach one ton, and luggage half a ton.
Have you known of any accidents to your coaches arising from the great
convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I have had
accidents, and they have sometimes been attributed to the horses shying,
and plunging the coach on one side, so as to cause it to overturn, from
the great roundness of the road.
Mr. _John Eames_, called in; and Examined.
You keep the White Horse, Fetter-lane, and are the proprietor of the
Angel Inn, St. Clement’s?—Yes.
You are the proprietor of several mail and stage coaches?—Yes.
How many horses do you keep?—About three hundred.
What are the principal roads you are in the habit of working from
London?—We work the Canterbury, the Cambridge, the Dover, the Norwich,
the Portsmouth, and some others.
Do you find that you sustain much inconvenience from the state of the
roads over which you travel?—Yes. As to inconvenience, I find much more
in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts.
How long do you find that your horses upon an average last, that are
employed in the first stages from London?—My horses, upon an average,
don’t last above three years in the fast coaches.
Including the mails?—Yes.
And those horses in the neighbourhood of London, are of greater value
than those employed at a distance?—They are.
Upon an average, how long do the horses last that are employed in the
more distant parts?—They last as long again.
Do you attribute that in a great degree to the badness of the roads in
the neighbourhood of London?—I attribute it to the distress the horse
receives from the badness of the roads near town; but I attribute it
also in a great degree to the meeting of different carriages, and
crossing the road, which makes it more laborious to the horse, though he
does not appear to go so many miles.
Do you not consider that that particular evil is occasioned in a great
degree by the convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London, the
materials being generally heaped up in the middle?—I do; it “tears their
hearts out,” as the coachmen express it. The roads are inconvenient from
the quantity and quality of the gravel heaped in the middle.
Have you known any instances in which a different system has been
pursued, and the roads greatly improved, in the neighbourhood of
London?—The road from London to Cranford Bridge has been improved of
late, and from London to Hounslow more particularly, in consequence of
the pavement in the crown of the road, which has done away with the
gravelling, or shingle rather.
Is not the gravel upon that road generally employed without sifting or
washing?—It is half clay.
Have you known instances in which this inconvenience has been remedied
by superior skill and experience in the surveyor of the roads?—Yes; in
the same line of road that Mr. Horne referred to; in the Kent road
particularly.
If that same skill was employed in the application of materials to the
other roads, do you not think that they might be brought generally to
the same state of improvement?—I have no doubt of it; there is no
question about it. The Surrey road has been improved on the same
principle.
What do you call the Surrey road?—From London to Guildford.
Do you know under whose management that is?—I don’t know now; a person
named Baker had the management of it.
Was it under him it was improved?—Yes.
How many miles of road does that consist of?—Thirty miles.
And it is very much improved?—Yes.
By what means?—The materials are harder than the gravel. He brings the
rag flints and breaks them, but in a different manner from other parts
of the road. He has improved it so much, that it does not look the same
road at all; I can go now sixteen miles better than I could twelve
before.
Do you consider that the horses which travel these roads that have been
improved, last longer than formerly?—Yes.
You need hardly be asked whether these improvements enable you to carry
passengers at a lower rate than before?—Of course; it is the expense of
the stock that is the great thing.
If the roads were generally improved, travelling would be cheaper?—Of
course.
_Veneris, 21º die Maii, 1819._
Mr. _George Botham_, called in; and Examined.
You keep the George Inn, at Newbury?—I do.
Are you a proprietor of mail and other coaches?—Yes.
To a considerable extent?—Yes, and have been for some time.
How many horses have you?—More than a hundred.
Your attention has of course been directed to the state of the road
between Newbury and London?—Yes.
State any improvement that has taken place in that road?—There is a very
great improvement between Marlborough and Twyford.
Under whose directions?—Mr. MᶜAdam.
In what state was that road before?—It was in a very bad state, and I
mentioned it to lord Aylesbury, and he applied to get the materials, and
offered to give up any quantity of his land for the widening of the
road, which he has done.
In point of fact the road has been widened?—Much widened and much
improved.
Can you state what improvement it would make in the draught of the
carriages?—Not exactly, but I consider it a very great one.
You cannot state any proportion of the labour of horses in drawing a
carriage?—No, not particularly so; I did not expect to be asked, but it
is not very material.
In what state is that road, compared with the road from Twyford to
London?—I consider the road from Twyford to be a little mended, but it
is very bad at present.
Do you think by the adoption of the same system the road from Twyford to
London might be equally improved?—I have no doubt of it; the materials
are better.
Which of course would make a great difference in the ease of working
your coaches?—Yes; I should think we could perform the journey from
Newbury to Reading in a quarter of an hour’s less time, which is
seventeen miles.
Have you, as proprietor of mail coaches, had occasion to express any
dissatisfaction to the Post Office, with regard to your present
contracts?—Certainly, with very great reason.
Do you think that you should be enabled to continue those contracts at
the present rate, if the roads are not put into a better state of
repair?—That entirely depends upon the price of corn; we were very great
sufferers till lately, that corn has fallen so much: or else my brother,
as well as myself, intended to quit the mails, because we were losing a
great deal of money.
Do you consider that the system of repairing roads, which has been
adopted in that part of the road which you have described as under the
superintendance of Mr. MᶜAdam, is superior to any other that you have
seen adopted?—Certainly, I am sure it is, there is no question about it.
And that its general adoption would be highly beneficial to the coach
proprietors, and to the public?—Most certainly.
Mr. _Fromont_ being prevented by an accident from attending the
Committee, it was resolved that the following Letter be entered on the
Minutes:
Thatcham, May 1819.
Gentlemen,
I think it a duty incumbent on me to present to you my opinion
respecting Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan of repairing and improving turnpike
roads. From what I have noticed of his improvement on different parts
of the Bath road, on which I am at present working different coaches a
distance of above 500 miles per day, I think his plan altogether, _i.
e._ first of screening and cleansing the gravel, and breaking the
stones; secondly, of preparing the road to receive it; and thirdly, of
laying it on the road, is the best and safest method I have ever seen
in the course of fifty years experience in the coach and waggon
business. I have formerly had several accidents happen from the gravel
being laid too thick and very high in the middle of the road; and have
killed some hundreds of horses (extra) in pulling through it; and I
think I may venture to say, that if Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan was adopted
generally throughout the kingdom, in the course of a short time the
public would be enabled to travel with much greater ease and safety,
and at nearly one-third less of expense; at all events I am convinced
that nearly one-third less labour is required to work a fast coach
over part of the road between Reading and London, where MᶜAdam’s plan
has been adopted, than there is over other parts of the road where
they still continue the old plan In short, my opinion may be given in
a few words; his plan, if adopted generally, will cause the traveller
to find easier, safer, and more expeditious travelling, and the owners
of horses a diminution of nearly one-third of the original labour.
I am, Gentlemen, with respect,
Your most obedient servant,
_Edward Fromont_.
_Jovis, 4º die Martii, 1819._
_John Loudon MᶜAdam_, Esq. called in; and Examined.