I asked him how he was--as I observed the cuts and bruises on his face.
He said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. I
believe his next statement was at this time "I cannot or would not say
anything because the line is apparently tapped."
I did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for 2
or 3 minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall this particular part of the
conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Just do your best.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir, I just cannot recall that particular part
of the conversation. I might comment on that particular part to this
extent. That I felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from
his standpoint. He seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was
approximately 2 or 3 minutes of him speaking in this nature. Then I
took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family.
Mr. JENNER. His family?
Mr. OSWALD. About the family, including his family, my family. And,
also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--I
believe my question to him was "What about Marina and the children?"
His reply to me at that time was "Don't worry about them. The Paines
will take care of them"--that his friends, the Paines, would take care
of them satisfactorily.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee's friends, the Paines, would take care of them
satisfactorily?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
My reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were
not mine.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were you the first member of the family to see him, or had
Marina seen him the day before?
Mr. McKENZIE. Both Marina and Marguerite had seen him before.
Mr. OSWALD. Earlier that afternoon, sir. I was the last member of the
family to see him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about the new child, Rachel?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you raise that, or did he?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe I did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. I simply stated that I had seen the new baby and was not
aware of it at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Not aware that the baby had been born?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. He smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a
girl. His further comment was, "Well, you know how that goes."
Mr. JENNER. He said nothing, I take it, then, by way of apology or
otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of
this child?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You record on page 13 of your memorandum--you use this
expression: "I was not talking to the Lee I knew."
Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read that full sentence?
Mr. OSWALD. "He talked about the Paines as his friends and that they
would take care of Marina and the children."
Excuse me--I started too soon.
Mr. JENNER. That is all right.
Mr. OSWALD. "I stated who he considered to be his friends were not
necessarily mine. I did this to try to get through to him. To me his
answers were mechanical and I was not talking to the Lee I knew."
Mr. JENNER. Were you able to get through to him? Did you feel you got
through to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate, please, on your expression "I was
not talking to the Lee I knew"?
Mr. OSWALD. I was referring more specifically to the first part of
our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously
stated, very mechanical.
Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to
you?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the last time you ever saw your brother?
Mr. OSWALD. Alive, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. On page 14 you record a later conversation after you had
left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that
you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to
person, that things might have been different. Do you find that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate on what you meant by that?
Mr. OSWALD. By "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page 14, I am talking
about Mr. Tom Kelley, Inspector from Washington, D.C., United States
Secret Service, and agent, Mr. Mike Howard.
Our discussion was of the nature--I related to them as best I could
remember my entire conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald on that
afternoon of November 23, 1963, and I was of the opinion, or perhaps
expressed, either by Mr. Kelley or Mr. Mike Howard, that had we been
placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been
learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he
was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of
the President of the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Could I elaborate on that? If you talked person to person
to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging,
nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to
obtain more information from him?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a fair summary?
Mr. OSWALD. That is, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, Mr.
McKenzie, it is perfectly all right with me.
Mr. McKENZIE. No--that is all right.
Mr. JENNER. Does Mr. Oswald wish to elaborate?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded my examination.
On behalf of myself and the staff, I express to Mr. Oswald and to Mr.
McKenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have
received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given
to all of the questions I have put to him.
Mr. McKENZIE. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I am very glad that was put on the record. I entirely share
it for the Commission.