Mr. JENNER. In that discussion, were any alternatives discussed?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, there was not. It was a discussion only about Mr.
Martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two Secret Service
agents at lunch on that day, Wednesday, November 27, 1963. At the end
of that discussion. I considered in my own mind for a number of hours,
perhaps three or four hours, at which time I spoke to Marina N. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. At the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. At the Inn of the Six Flags, in a motel room.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else present?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. They were present in the room, but we were in a separate
room.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't take part in the discussion?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
At which time I pointed out Mr. Martin to Marina Oswald, and related
to her as best I could at that time his offer to take Marina into his
home, and the children into his home.
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you.
You say you pointed out Mr. Martin to your sister-in-law, Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. I take it--am I correct from that that she had not
theretofore become acquainted with him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I believe she had, but at that time she had seen
so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember
which man was Mr. Martin.
And, at this time, I did point out Mr. Martin, so that she would know
him from then on.
Mr. JENNER. Was any question raised about her residing at the home of
a person who was a complete stranger to her? And about whom you knew
little or nothing?
Mr. OSWALD. At this time I was considering this, and I believe this was
my attempt to have Marina consider this, of moving into a home with a
complete strange family.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, you were raising a question in your own
mind on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Up to that time of Mr. Martin's offer, not recalling anybody that I
stated it to--I assumed it my full responsibility to have Marina and
her children move into my home in Denton, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. Had you suggested that to her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or to anybody else?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had the suggestion been made to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it had not.
Mr. DULLES. Was going back to the Paines in the picture at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. To some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For what reason?
Mr. OSWALD. For my observations of Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas
police office, as previously testified.
Mr. JENNER. The antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you
met Mr. Paine, and Mrs. Paine that evening?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina say anything to you on the subject, of her
desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the
Paines?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she say on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That she thought she could go back up to Mr. and Mrs. Paine
and live.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to
her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Even desirable to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what was your response to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I indicated to her that I thought that that was not the
thing to do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say that to her?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what did she say in response to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know
why I did not want her to return with her children to Mr. and Mrs.
Paine.
Mr. JENNER. That is a normal response.
What did you say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. As best I could I indicated to her I didn't think they were
the proper or correct people for her to be associated with.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a term of conclusion, Mr. Oswald. Would you
please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "I don't
think they are the proper people"?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. It is very difficult.
Mr. JENNER. Try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct
the conversation, and I think he has testified to the best of his
recollection.
Mr. DULLES. Are you tired at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I am not tired. Thank you, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you one question, if I may.
Mr. JENNER. Could he answer the question I have just put to him first?
Mr. McKENZIE. Surely.
Mr. OSWALD. May I, sir, in my own way?
Mr. DULLES. Do you object to the question?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, I don't object to it, Mr. Dulles. I don't think that
Robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the
question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. And I
think he is trying to answer your question.
Mr. JENNER. I don't mean to suggest otherwise.
But the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they
do tend to speak in terms of conclusions.
I am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and
recite what occurred.
Mr. DULLES. Would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever
you wish to do?
Mr. JENNER. When Marina indicated to you her desire to return to the
Paines and live with the Paines, and you responded as you have now
testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were
not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please
call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can,
exactly what you said to her in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. My recollection of that, sir--I stated to her, because
of her limited knowledge of English, that no--perhaps with some hand
signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. And
I perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this
line--something of that nature, sir.
That is the best I can do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or
statement that you were suspicious of the Paines or that your reaction
of that--was that Saturday night, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. No, this was a Wednesday.
Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations
about them?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I perhaps attempted to give her some more
indication on that. But due to the difficulty at that time of the
language barrier, and her limited English, and she, I believe,
was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it
was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice
in trying to follow my wishes as best as I could get them over to her.
Mr. DULLES. May I just add for the record that the Commission realizes
that Mr. and Mrs. Paine were separated or were living separately, and
it was probably going back to Mrs. Paine, although I understand Mr.
Paine from time to time would visit there.
Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, too, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And was that the understanding at the time you gave Marina
this advice?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Paine stayed there from time to
time, or he just visited his wife? I understand they are separated, and
not divorced. Isn't that correct?
Mr. JENNER. That is my understanding.
Mr. OSWALD. That is my understanding, also.
And in answer to your question, sir, I became aware of this on Saturday
night, November 23, 1963, at the Dallas police office.
Mr. JENNER. Aware of the separation?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. As the Paines were about to depart with Marina
and the children and my mother. And the statement was made by Mr. Paine
that he would--I believe this to be my best recollection--that he would
take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the
looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to Mrs.
Paine, without saying anything, and she said, "Well, it is a difficult
situation, I will explain it on the way."
Mr. JENNER. And that increased your antipathy?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And the decision was made, as you have related then, that
Marina would reside with the Martins?
Mr. OSWALD. Not on Wednesday night, sir.
On Thursday, the ensuing night.
Mr. JENNER. The following day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have told us about that.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the
treatment of FBI agents of your mother, at least in your presence?
Their attitude towards her and their treatment of her?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I do not recall any FBI agents in the presence of my
mother.
Mr. JENNER. You do not?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may, sir--I believe you have reference to the United
States Secret Service agents there.
Mr. JENNER. No. I was going to ask you that. But Representative Ford
has a question which he has limited, however, to the FBI, so I did want
to cover that.
You have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your
mother, Marguerite, accorded to her by the--by FBI agents?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. You might have an opinion, but you have no--well, I will
withdraw that.
Now, I ask you, likewise, with respect to the Secret Service agents.
Mr. OSWALD. There was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom
she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her.
Mr. JENNER. You used the word "harshly." Does that include "unjustly"
in your opinion?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you share the opinion that the Secret Service agent you
have in mind was treating her harshly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I would not be of that opinion. And the Secret
Service agent in question here is Mr. Charlie Kunkel.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have a good impression of him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses,
and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her
normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment?
Mr. OSWALD. Only on one occasion I might have a hesitation to give
a positive answer to that, sir. This occurred at the Inn of the Six
Flags, in Arlington, Texas. As Mr. Kunkel was going out the front
door one day--I do not recall the day--I would say this would be
approximately Wednesday, November 27, 1963--there was a brief exchange
at the doorway between Mr. Kunkel and my mother, of which I am
attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best
of my remembrance, that "Please, sir, don't say anything to me at all."
And Mr. Kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not
unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him.
And that was the end of that.
Mr. JENNER. That is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness,
that you observed occurring between any Secret Service agent and your
mother?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother has made an assertion before the Commission
that she believes that the FBI should have interviewed her, and she
asserts that the FBI did not interview her.
Do you have any information on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. Are we referring to the period of the week of November 25,
sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. May I have your question again, please?
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. OSWALD. During the week of November 25, 1963, my mother, Mrs.
Marguerite C. Oswald, was not interviewed by FBI agents.