Mr. JENNER. Keep in mind all this history also, Mr. Oswald.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That you testified about.
Mr. OSWALD. That perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have
anything to do with us. However, it was also my thinking on this that
this would be out of character for him because he normally would
keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth,
even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which I
understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated----
Mr. JENNER. Despite your at least two requests?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or three requests?
Mr. OSWALD. Indicated to me that perhaps something of a different
nature was going on that I was not aware of, whether he was having
trouble with Marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting
along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this
would be my only speculation on that, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did your wife have any contact with Marina over this period
we are discussing from Thanksgiving of 1962 to November 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to
effect a contact with Marina?
Mr. OSWALD. Did my wife?
No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the light, Mr. Oswald, of the fact that your brother,
as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at
least, in the light of his departure for Russia, in the light of the
correspondence that you had with him in Russia about which you have
testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon
his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as
long a period as from Thanksgiving Day of 1962 to well into the fall
of 1963 raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now
testified about?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That it might be something other than possible marital
difficulties?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Of course, I refer to the postcard of January 10, 1963, and the letter
of March 17, 1963, which I would state other than the fact that he did
not advise me of his residence in Dallas, Tex.----
Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you requested it?
Mr. OSWALD. Right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was
going back to prior to the time that he was in Russia, to the extent
that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service
and so forth, and then again I thought that he was returning to this,
because I was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was
in Russia. And it is my opinion, sir, that Lee felt that he had caused
me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though I
had offered my assistance after his return from Russia, in any way that
I possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in
any financial difficulty or any other difficulty.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.
I am going to attempt to cover in general terms, Mr. Chairman,
Representative Ford's questions and see if I can shorten up the
examination in that respect.
Mr. DULLES. Could I have just a word with you for just a moment.
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are
you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your
brother upon General Walker?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. JENNER. It is that to which I wish to direct a question.
Did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at
any time prior to November 24, 1963, of that incident?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. No one had spoken to you about it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they had not.
Mr. JENNER. When did it first come to your attention?
Mr. OSWALD. In the newspaper. I believe this to be sometime in the
latter part of December 1963 or January 1964.
Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to your brother's death?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had no information direct or indirect of any kind
or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had
carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than
school boy antics?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was not. I have never known him to attempt or
indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a
schoolboy----
Mr. JENNER. Was he given to tantrums?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. DULLES. Did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself,
that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions
that he had that he was holding in? Did you get that impression from
your knowledge of him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I would say that Lee's character was
that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of
being an introvert. I do not believe he was an introvert.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you that question. There have been
people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many
of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an
introvert. Your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a
statement that she made to the authorities in New York City, and I
think on this record.
Was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with
him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend
to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily
repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say yes and no, sir, to that question if I may.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no?
Mr. OSWALD. I feel like in the late 1940s to about the time of my
departure to the service in July of 1952, that he did seek out friends,
and that he did have friends. However, after my release from the
service in 1955, I do believe that he had become more grown to himself.
Mr. JENNER. That is during the interim he had become, while you were
away?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed a change in him when you returned from the
service?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that what you mean to say?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed and describe that to us.
Mr. OSWALD. Still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to
be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and I do not know
of any friends that he had at that particular time.
One factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a
number of times during this period.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from the reason, for the moment, I seek to draw from
you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring
and that you had actually noticed that difference in him?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more
drawn into himself to the extent that I noticed that he wanted to read
more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself.
However, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did
not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to 1952,
sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that
that persisted when he returned from Russia?
Was he still of that retiring nature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he was not. I felt that he was more of a
gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to
talk to people.
Mr. JENNER. After he left your home and took residence with your mother
and thereafter in various places in Fort Worth, did he seek you out?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. He called me on a number of occasions at my
office.
Mr. JENNER. Did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without
invitation?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall of any time, sir. I usually was talking to
him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had
moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent
that I always told him that if he would like to come out any time just
to give me a ring and I would gladly pick them up and bring them out to
the house and return them to their home.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do so?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. DULLES. There has been some testimony here before the Commission
to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much
away with some of the Russian group of friends in Dallas that Marina
had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk
Russian. Did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further
light on that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. I was aware or had become aware of this
group or some other group of the Russian-speaking population in Dallas,
and I was aware of Mr. Gregory in Fort Worth, Tex., who had come to
my house before Lee and Marina had moved out, to speak in the Russian
language to Marina and to Lee. I was not aware that--I was aware that
he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons,
and I was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group
of people.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know anything about his relations with a certain
man named De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name familiar to you?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Dulles, who is the Chairman of the session today,
has asked Mr. Oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of
De Mohrenschildt. Robert Oswald's answer I believe is reflected on
the record that he did not know Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have stated
off the record to Mr. Dulles and to Mr. Jenner that I know George De
Mohrenschildt.
I became acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt in this manner.
Shortly after the law was passed in Texas that we could have women
jurors----
Mr. JENNER. Could you fix that time?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, I cannot, but it has been within the last five years.
I would say. But shortly after the law was passed that we could have
women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury
in Dallas, Texas, in one of our district courts. Sitting on that same
jury with my wife, Sally McKenzie was a man by the name of George De
Mohrenschildt. As a result of her jury experience in the trial of this
case, in which he was a juror, I met George De Mohrenschildt. I have
since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately.
George De Mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from
Pennsylvania by the name of Wynne Sharples. They were subsequently
divorced in Dallas. Wynne Sharples is an M.D. by profession. She comes
from a well-known Pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged
in the oil business under the name of Sharples Oil Company.
Wynne Sharples, following her divorce from George De Mohrenschildt,
remarried and married another M.D.
Mr. JENNER. What is her married name?
Mr. McKENZIE. I do not recall her married name, but I do believe that
she and her then husband, and I presume her present husband, the doctor
that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital
in Philadelphia or Baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a
children's ailment of a very serious nature, and I believe it was
connected with some blood type ailment.
Mr. JENNER. Leukemia?
Mr. McKENZIE. No, it was not leukemia. There was an article on Wynne
Sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the Dallas
Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News, within the past five years.
George De Mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some
time within the past two years there was an article on George De
Mohrenschildt in one of the Dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip
that he and his new bride were going to take through Mexico and Central
America walking. In other words, they were going to walk from Dallas
or the Mexican-United States border through Mexico and through Central
America. It is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that
George De Mohrenschildt has since that time returned to Dallas, Tex. In
fact, I have seen him in Dallas, Tex., within the past 7 months.
I do not know of any relationship between George De Mohrenschildt and
Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, nor have I ever heard of any.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe George De Mohrenschildt physically, his
physical appearance, the one you have in mind?
Mr. McKENZIE. The man that I know is a large man, approximately six
foot one to three inches. He would probably weigh 205 to maybe 215
pounds.
Mr. JENNER. Age?
Mr. McKENZIE. He appears to be between 45 and 50 or 51 or 52. He has
got a dark complexion, and I would say a typically foreign expression
or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a Russian
or of the Slavic races.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression
of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech?
Mr. McKENZIE. He does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and I
have heard, I do not know this to be true, but I have heard that Mr. De
Mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thanks.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, I have asked you about the Nixon and General
Walker incidents. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, have
drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action
on the part of your brother Lee similar to those which have been raised
as to General Walker and Richard Nixon?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the
rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of President Kennedy
in that assassination?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have seen pictures of it?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 23, 1963, ever see
the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination
of President Kennedy?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that
character in the possession of your brother, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about
any premises that he might or was occupying or that Marina was
occupying?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not. I might further state I never knew him
to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a .22 caliber
rifle that he purchased from New Orleans, La., and on my visit to New
Orleans, La., in 1955 on my discharge from the service, I purchased
this from Lee for a total of $10. He had given approximately $16 for
the rifle. It would not fire. And I gave him $10 for it, and took it
back to Fort Worth and worked on it and put it into working condition.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place
between you and Lee, or in your presence, other than that which you
have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm,
be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from June 1962 to, and
including, the 23d of November, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I had not.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing of that character occurred between you or in your
presence and his presence during all of that period of time?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir. I might say what they were saying
at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., on Davenport Street during the first
week, Lee and I were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws'
farm, I did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front
of Marina and Lee. They made Marina Oswald nervous, and shortly after
looking at my weapons, I returned them to their proper place, and
that was the only time that I have ever seen him handle a weapon from
the time that he returned from Russia in 1962 until the reports of
present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon.
Mr. JENNER. Just to nail down this subject, I take it then that at
no time from the time of his return in June of 1962 to the United
States to and including November 23, 1962, did you ever see him in the
possession of a firearm of any kind or character?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not. If I may, sir, referring to the hunting
trip that we did take at the farm in June of 1962----
Mr. JENNER. Other than that to which you have already testified?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct, at no time.
Mr. JENNER. And you had that in mind when you answered my question in
the negative?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I was excluding your prior testimony.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your
knowledge seen Jack Ruby on television?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Or a person said to be Jack Ruby?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Use his full name.
Mr. JENNER. Jack Rubenstein.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated
by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge?
Mr. OSWALD. Would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those
establishments?
Mr. JENNER. I will do that from other papers later on, but to your
present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection,
could you give me an answer?
Mr. OSWALD. I have not, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer
to----
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind waiting? I am just taking care of
Representative Ford's questions at the moment.
Your mother testified that an FBI agent had shown her a picture of
some man on the evening of Saturday, November 23, 1963. She testified
further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw
a picture of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby in the
newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that Ruby was the
man whose picture had been shown to her on a Saturday night, November
23, 1963, by an agent of the FBI. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And did that take place?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please testify or tell us of where that took
place, who was present and what the circumstances were?
Mr. OSWALD. That took place at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington,
Tex., during the week of November 25, 1963, in the presence I believe
of two or more Secret Service agents, and perhaps an Arlington police
officer in the rooms that were assigned at the Inn of the Six Flags,
and I feel like at least one of the Secret Service agents that was
present----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and I feel like".
Do you mean you are speculating?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, is that a better expression, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, and then I will ask you on what basis you base
that belief.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I believe that the Secret Service agents,
at least one of them was Mr. Mike Howard.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is what you mean by believe?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OSWALD. I testify it was either two or three Secret Service agents
present, and my best recollection, another Secret Service agent would
be Mr. Charles I. Kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly,
there was an Arlington police officer at the time. It would be either
Mr. Bob Parsons or Mr. Jeff Gan.
Mr. JENNER. These were the persons present on this occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this to be.
Mr. JENNER. And what occurred and what was said?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another
room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which I cannot
identify, that reportedly had a picture of Mr. Rubenstein or Mr. Jack
Ruby, and mother exclaimed to me----
Mr. JENNER. Did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she had the newspaper in her possession?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. And she walked among you and said something?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she exhibit anything?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, she did.
Mr. JENNER. What did she exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. A picture that I could recognize as a picture now of a man
known as Jack Ruby.
Mr. JENNER. That was a picture in the newspaper?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.