Mr. OSWALD. He.
Mr. JENNER. This is a conversation with him?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Marina on this subject
or in her presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Not that I recall, no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But he did state specifically that they had gone to Moscow?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And from Moscow to where?
Mr. OSWALD. To Holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from
Moscow to Holland, by what means of conveyance?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about how long they stayed in Moscow
before they took off for Holland?
Mr. OSWALD. In this discussion, I do not recall that he did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did he say how long they stayed in Holland, if they
stayed there at all?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, he did not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do recall his stating specifically they touched
England in the sense that the ship----
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it
appeared not to be, I say appeared, I assume it was not a very long
stay there and that they did not leave the ship.
Mr. JENNER. He did state that they did not leave the ship at that point?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put
it to me.
Mr. JENNER. And they proceeded from there directly to New York Harbor,
New York City.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. By what means? And he did report that to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did this series of letters you received in the early
portion, period of his stay in Russia excite your suspicions as to
whether he was or might be a Russian agent?
Mr. OSWALD. If I understand the question correctly this was the early
stay of his in Russia in 1959?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, 1959 and let us say to the early part of 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during
this period of time with your mother or she with you?
Mr. OSWALD. Prior to his return in 1961 she did discuss this with me.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Where did this discussion take place?
Mr. OSWALD. If I may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give
me the date of her trip to Washington, D.C.
Mr. JENNER. You have me at a disadvantage because Mr. Liebeler has been
called out and he can furnish that. I don't want to guess at it.
Mr. McKENZIE. May I then ask if possibly the Chairman might recall?
Mr. DULLES. The date of that visit to Washington?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. No, I don't think I do.
Mr. McKENZIE. Possibly Mr. Rankin might know.
Mr. JENNER. Our information was that that was January 26, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir. If I may have, the question again, please.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. Whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your
mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the Russian
Government.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, sir, I believe I misunderstood. I thought it
was in reference to whether or not Lee might have been an agent of the
United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. No. It was the Russian Government I asked about.
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir. At no time was any discussion that I have
been into indicated that in any way.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a
conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent
of the United States Government.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And are you able to fix the time of that discussion now
having been supplied with the date when your mother visited Washington?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately the spring of 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Several months following her visit to Washington in
January, 1961.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where did that discussion take place?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe this was a telephone conversation, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you call her or did she call you?
Mr. OSWALD. She called me, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you recognized her voice, did you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say on the subject?
Mr. OSWALD. That she told me briefly about her trip to Washington, and
that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that
she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that Lee was an agent of
one sort or another for the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. Did you respond to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall, sir, that I did; if so, what my response
might have been.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you
don't recall your response?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, have you given us now all your conversations you
had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is
up to November 22, 1963, as to whether your brother was or might have
been an agent of the Government of the United States or an agent of any
other government including that of Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. As you received these letters, particularly the series of
letters in 1961, up to the first of January, 1962, did there occur
to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the
Russian Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it most certainly did not.
Mr. JENNER. And at any time thereafter up to November 22, 1963?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it has not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the State Department or did
the State Department have any contact with you at any time while your
brother was in Russia?
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, I believe the record will show there was a
previous telegram to Mr. Christian Herter who was Secretary of State at
the time.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the telegram you testified about yesterday.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversations with your mother respecting
her contacts, if any, with the State Department during the period of
time your brother was in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you at any time prior to November 22, 1963, no, I will
include that date, let's say at any time prior to December 1, 1963,
have any view or suspicion that Marina Oswald was or might have been an
agent of the Russian Government?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the letter of July 14, 1961, being Commission Exhibit
301, your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments
respecting Russia. Is that the first information or knowledge that you
had of any change of attitude on his part?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in
that connection.
Mr. OSWALD. If I understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had I had
any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of July 14, 1961,
that Lee was becoming----
Mr. JENNER. Disenchanted.
Mr. OSWALD. Disenchanted with the Russian way of life?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OSWALD. When I received his first letter from Russia after a year
or so of silence----
Mr. JENNER. Give the date of the letter.
There is a break between December 17, 1959 and May 5, 1961.
Is it the letter of May 5 of 1961?
Mr. OSWALD. I am referring to the letter of May 5, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. All right. It is Commission Exhibit 299.
Mr. OSWALD. It indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not,
because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted
with the Russian way of life.
Mr. JENNER. This is the first letter you received after Lee had gone to
Minsk, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And it is the first letter you received following the
undated letter of, in December, 1959, but that you have noted was
received on the 17th of December, 1959.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then the subsequent letters heightened your
impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or
was becoming, disenchanted with Russia.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that
he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was
then----
Mr. JENNER. After you had read that letter, meaning the letter of May
5, 1961, which is Commission Exhibit 299, you felt that, or you had the
reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which
he expressly stated----
Mr. McKENZIE. Disenchantment.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. There appears to be on some of the envelopes now in
evidence some stamps. They are in Russian but they may indicate that
they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will
now undertake to investigate that circumstance.
Mr. McKENZIE. Would you like for me to tell you which ones?
Mr. JENNER. If you will give me the dates I will recite the exhibit
numbers.
Mr. McKENZIE. It is June 26, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 300.
Mr. McKENZIE. August 21, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. Is the envelope dated August 21?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes,
August 21, that is Commission Exhibit No. 303.
You need not do it.
Mr. McKENZIE. And September 10, 1961.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit No. 305.
Mr. McKENZIE. And I call the Commission's attention particularly to the
word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means.
Mr. DULLES. That is French.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please relate, Mr. Oswald, Marina's ability to
speak or understand English at the time that she and your brother
returned from Russia in June of 1962?
Mr. OSWALD. Her ability to understand was far less than her ability to
speak English words. I spoke to her on the telephone the night of June
13, 1962 from New York City, to my residence in Fort Worth, Tex., and
her statement to me at that time was, "Hello, Robert." I replied but no
answer, and Lee took the telephone over again.
Mr. JENNER. During the month they lived in your home, were you better
able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand
English?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe the best way to establish the degree of what she
understood in English at that time and her ability to speak the English
language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. As to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that
regard become better as the months and years wore on?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion which you overheard or with you,
respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, English?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak
English at the time, and she was staying at my home in Fort Worth,
Tex., and prior to their departure from Fort Worth, Tex., to Dallas,
Tex., in the winter of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother's attitude with respect to her
desires in that respect?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not recall him stating his desires in that respect
either pro or con.
Mr. JENNER. You have no impressions on the subject either way?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I might have an impression, pardon me, that he
wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying
at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. That was expressed in your presence during that period of
time by him?
Mr. OSWALD. Not in so many words, sir. It was perhaps implied, and he
left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn English at that
time or as soon as she possibly could, and I might add that on a number
of occasions during the visit at my home in Fort Worth, Tex., that
my daughter Cathy, with her childhood language in 1961, which would
establish her age at 4 years old, would talk to her and it appeared
that she would gather more English from Cathy than she would the adults
in the family.
Mr. JENNER. Did the State Department or any agency of the United
States, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or
the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was
still in Russia for the purpose of financing his return to the United
States?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did any agency of the United States or any public body
located in New York City get in touch with you with respect to
supplying him funds for his transportation from New York City to Fort
Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, they did.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you
received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the agency? Was it the one that
you identified yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
In his letter of November 30, 1961, he makes a request for a football.
Did you send the football to him?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. In the letter of December 14, 1961, which is Commission
Exhibit No. 311, he makes a reference to the fact that he had not
received any letter with "certain" questions. Apparently questions that
you had put to him.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have that letter?
Mr. OSWALD. The letter of July 14?
Mr. JENNER. No, this is December 14.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me.
Mr. JENNER. That is Commission Exhibit 311. It is two pages.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you
had written him prior thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. JENNER. Will you state what the letter was and whether it was in
response to an earlier letter?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an
earlier letter from Lee. I did in an effort to determine whether or not
all my letters----
Mr. JENNER. The last prior letter was the letter of November 30, 1961,
Commission Exhibit 308, and then immediately prior to that was the
letter of November 1, 1961, Commission Exhibit 309.
Mr. OSWALD. In reference to the question regarding that letter of
December 14, 1961, at which time he stated "I did not receive any
letter with 'certain' questions."
I did write him a letter at which time I recall raising two political
type questions to see whether or not he would receive----
Mr. JENNER. He would respond?
Mr. OSWALD. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. To see whether he would respond, did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. To see whether or not he would receive the letter itself.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I thought you said to receive.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some
earlier letters he refers there to some Russian censors he felt like
were censoring his mail and my mail also and I wanted to find out in my
own way whether this was so or not.
I might say that was the only time I attempted to raise any type of
political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other
letters that I sent him, because I did want the letters to go through
rather than be destroyed or not received by him.
Mr. JENNER. We can draw our own inference as to whether he received
your letter.
Was there any discussion of the subject after return to the United
States, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Not to my recollection, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with your brother on the
subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the United
States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And when was that? Was it more than one occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that
matter.
Mr. JENNER. When was that? Where was it?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately June 1962 at my home in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. Who was present?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe just Lee and I were present in this one room
which was the living room of our home.
Mr. JENNER. In your home?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. OSWALD. He said he wanted to go down the next day to the Marine
Corps office in Fort Worth, Tex., and discuss with them and perhaps
find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an
honorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say?
Mr. OSWALD. My reply to him on that was that I thought that that was
a good idea and that he might raise the question at the Marine Corps
office in Fort Worth, Tex., if I could be of some assistance in
writing the Marine Corps office directly on behalf of him. I do not
recall if he made this trip to the Marine Corps office. I do not recall
any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. Would you turn your attention now to the letter of May 22,
1962, shortly before he returned to the United States?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit 318.
As I recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said
when he departed for Russia. Do you find that portion of the letter?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it aloud, please, just that portion?
Mr. McKENZIE. May I interrupt you at this point, Mr. Jenner?
Please, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly, proceed.
Mr. McKENZIE. The two letters of November 8 and November 26 which we
should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull
them out of your file there I will--do you want to take the originals?
Mr. JENNER. That will be the best way of doing it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Except that yours are already marked with the exhibit
number. I have no objection.