Mr. DULLES. May I ask just one question there for clarity? It refers to
an office. Is that the office of the Dallas police?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. The Dallas police station?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met
either Mr. or Mrs. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And would you elaborate upon, please, your statement
recorded on December 6, 1963, that you did not like the appearance
of Mr. Paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but I just had a
feeling. I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine are
somehow involved in this affair."
Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Paine at the Dallas police
office on the night of November 22, 1963. His wife introduced us. His
handshake was very weak and what I might term a live fish handshake.
Mr. JENNER. Live or dead?
Mr. OSWALD. And his general appearance, his face, and most particularly
his eyes to me had what I would term a distant look to them, and that
he wasn't really looking at you when he was.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the
witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish.
Mr. OSWALD. Sir, I believe I mean a live fish. A cold, dead fish would
be stiff.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this
entry.
Mr. OSWALD. It was Mr. Paine's general appearance and the manner in
which he held himself, and by this I mean the way he stood and the way
he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as I stated before, that he
was not really looking at you.
Mr. DULLES. You say there that Mrs. Paine introduced Mr. Paine to you.
When had you previously made the acquaintance of Mrs. Paine--just
before this?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. DULLES. On that same day?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a
previous page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. JENNER. The fact of the introduction?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I do so.
Mr. JENNER. I think the Commission would be interested further in
explaining your remark "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and
Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." What did you mean by
that? That is on page 6.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I just wanted to verify that this was still under
my date, original entry of December 6, 1963.
At the time I wrote the statement, "I still do not know why or how, but
Mr. and Mrs. Paine are somehow involved in this affair." I meant by
this statement that I had gathered that after our meeting of November
22, 1963, at the Dallas police station, to the date of December 6,
1963, that Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine were separated, and that I had
read approximately at this time--and I am not sure that I had read
this particular thing in the newspaper prior to December 6, 1963--but
I feel like I did--that in a Dallas paper it referred to an incident
at a Grand Prairie Rifle Range where some people had identified Lee
as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the
description was given in the newspaper, had handed Lee Harvey Oswald a
rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. As
I read this description in the newspaper, I reached the conclusion from
that description that it was Mr. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Any other basis that you now recall upon which you
predicated the statement that, "Somehow Mr. and Mrs. Paine are involved
in this affair."
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; if the newspaper I read at that particular time
is dated after December 6, 1963, the statement that I just read a few
minutes ago, "I still do not know why or how, but Mr. and Mrs. Paine
are somehow involved in this affair"--I made that statement then based
on my meeting Mr. and Mrs. Paine at the Dallas police station on Friday
night, November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please describe Mr. Paine as he appeared
on that particular occasion--first, his physical appearance, and then
follow with how he was dressed. Give his height, weight, color of eyes
and hair, as you recall them.
Mr. OSWALD. I recall Mr. Paine to be approximately 6 feet in height. I
do not recall the color of his hair. He is of slender build. Perhaps
I would establish his weight around 160 or 165 pounds. His facial
appearance was quite drawn--and this is a conclusion on my part,
because I had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the
face.
His eyes, I would say, would have to me a hollow look.
Mr. JENNER. What color were his eyes?
Mr. OSWALD. I do not know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You don't presently recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. You made no note of it at the time?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. What was his complexion--ruddy, pale?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say his complexion would be ruddy complected.
Mr. JENNER. Was he clean shaven?
Mr. OSWALD. To the best of my recollection, he was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. No mustache, no beard?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What else did you notice about his appearance? How did he
part his hair? Do you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did part it?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I do not. I believe this to be correct--that I
never did get any higher than looking at Mr. Paine's eyes, and I do not
believe I looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you with Mr. Paine on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately five minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen Mr. Paine subsequently thereto?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. JENNER. On how many occasions?
Mr. OSWALD. On one other occasion, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be approximately a Sunday afternoon in the
middle of December 1963.
Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately a week after you made this
entry?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. In the presence of Mr. Jim H. Martin, and Mr.
John Thorne. We traveled from Mr. Martin's home to the Paines' house
in Irving to pick up Marina's and Lee's clothes that were still there.
Mr. JENNER. Still at the Paines' home?
Mr. OSWALD. Still at the Paines' home. I saw Mr. and Mrs. Paine again
on that day--I mean at that time. That was my second and only time I
have ever seen them. Mr. and Mrs. Paine helped gather up the belongings
of Marina and the children and Lee's personal belongings that were
still there.
Mr. JENNER. To make it clear, Mr. Oswald, did Mr. Paine accompany you
with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne to the Paine home, or did you meet Mr.
Paine when you arrived there?
Mr. OSWALD. We met Mr. Paine and Mrs. Paine on our arrival at their
home in Irving, Texas.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?
Mr. OSWALD. Approximately 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr. JENNER. How was he clothed on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. In a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here
on page 6?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt
on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some
type.
Mr. JENNER. Was his head covered on either occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. No. sir, it was not.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had
straight hair or a full head of hair on him? Was he bald?
You have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am I
correct on that?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
In referring to the second meeting of Mr. Paine and myself, in
reference to his hair, I would say his hair was practically a full set
of hair, dark and short.
Mr. JENNER. When you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, just cut short.
Mr. JENNER. How do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut?
Is it cut short?
Mr. OSWALD. Presently, I would describe wearing mine at a medium
length, for myself.
Mr. McKENZIE. How about Mr. Jenner's?
Mr. OSWALD. I would describe his as being in medium length.
Mr. JENNER. I think you are right.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question there?
Had you known prior to November 22d that Marina was living with Mrs.
Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You had not known that before November 22d?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know at the time you were introduced to Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And you had become advised in that respect by whom?
Mr. OSWALD. By Mrs. Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Are those the only two occasions you have had any contact
with Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?
Mr. OSWALD. A tall woman, approximately 110 pounds--and by tall I mean
approximately 5 foot 11, or 6 feet in height.
Mr. JENNER. Weighing only 110 pounds?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, very slender. A slender face, also--not a full
face.
Mr. JENNER. When you say also, are you now referring to Mr. Paine?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I was referring to my statement that Mrs. Paine
was slender, and also that she was slender in the face.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you.
Mr. OSWALD. Long hair, I believe to be brown in color.
Mr. JENNER. How did she do her hair, was it in braids?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I believe it was just hanging down long.
Mr. JENNER. When you say long, how long?
Mr. OSWALD. Shoulder height.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald, would you accommodate us--not to do it now,
but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through, your diary
to the court reporter, because some of the writing I have difficulty
interpreting. The Commission would appreciate it if you would interpret
your own writing on the exhibit.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. I understand that you want me to read the
entire diary, is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, to the court reporter--as part of the record, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. You may proceed.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student were you, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe my average in school was--if I may, sir, ask
you--are you talking about my over-all average?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir, I seek only the over-all.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C or C-plus, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of
your brother John?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not. I could, if you wish me to, make an
opinion on what I think it would be.
Mr. JENNER. This opinion being based upon your attending school with
him, as you testified yesterday?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And discussions with him back and forth between the both of
you as to how you were getting along?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Common interest in your progress scholarshipwise?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your present recollection as to his scholarship?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be a C-plus or a B.
Mr. JENNER. A touch higher than yours?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a
like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And what was his scholarship?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say a C to a C-plus, in the same category that I
place myself.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Oswald and Mr. McKenzie, Mr. Chairman, have furnished
us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which Mr.
Oswald, the witness, received from his brother Lee Harvey Oswald. We
have prepared photostatic copies on a Xerox machine of each of those
letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. And in the case of
postcards the front and reverse side of postcards.
We were further accommodated, by--yesterday afternoon following the
close of the session--by sitting down with Mr. Oswald and in his
presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the
original, the original being in the possession of Mr. Oswald. And I am
marking each of those documents with an exhibit number.
Mr. DULLES. Could you give us, Mr. Jenner, the first and last dates, so
we have an idea of the period covered?