Mr. DULLES. Maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason
for it.
Representative BOGGS. I had understood him to say he had not been in
contact with his brother Lee, I didn't hear him say anything about his
mother.
Mr. McKENZIE. That is correct. For the year prior to November 22d had
you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch
with you, Robert?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; we had not been in touch.
Representative BOGGS. Your mother in her testimony before the
Commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she
thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the CIA. Did you ever
have any reason to think that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my
mind as to him being an agent of the CIA or any other U.S. Government
bureau was on his return from Russia while residing at my residence in
Fort Worth, the FBI had called and requested that he come down for an
interview there in Fort Worth. On the completion of his interview when
I came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and I asked
him how did they treat him, and so forth. He said just fine, and he
says, "They asked me was I a secret agent," or some type of agent for
the U.S. Government and he laughed and he said, "Well, don't you know?"
I remember that. That was just crossed out of my mind.
Representative FORD. Between November 22 and the last time you saw your
mother did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an agent of
the Federal Government?
Mr. OSWALD. This was prior to November 22?
Representative FORD. No, from November 22 until the last time you saw
your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought Lee was an
agent of the Federal Government?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; she did.
Representative FORD. Can you tell us when?
Mr. OSWALD. During the middle to the latter part of the week that we
were at the Inn of the Six Flags, and at least one conversation since
we left the Inn of the Six Flags, I think it took place during December
1963.
Mr. JENNER. By telephone or personal?
Mr. OSWALD. By telephone, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to relate--for Representative
Ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and
in the presence of whom by your mother at the Six Flags?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe it was just mother and I, and I might say on
numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say
something to me. It was on one of these occasions that she was talking
to me about this.
Mr. JENNER. Relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say?
Mr. OSWALD. She said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost
conclusively proved to her that Lee was an agent of the CIA.
Mr. JENNER. Did she identify the facts in writing?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of her on that subject?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific
basis of hers on which she predicated her statement?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did ask her if she had such facts to please give
it to the U.S. Secret Service.
Representative FORD. What did she say to that?
Mr. OSWALD. I think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked
off.
Mr. DULLES. Had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her
counsel at that time, Mr. Lane?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she had not.
Mr. DULLES. She had not.
Representative BOGGS. You at various times have tried to help your
mother, I gather, while you were growing up.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. I gather you found it rather difficult even when
you were younger to get along with your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, Lee, and
your brother, John?
Representative BOGGS. Those were the questions I was about to ask.
Mr. OSWALD. I would say this would also apply to my older brother John,
and also to Lee. It appears as though Lee was able to put up with her
more than I or my older brother John could.
Representative BOGGS. Your father died when you were what, about 5?
Mr. OSWALD. Five years old, sir.
Representative BOGGS. You were living in New Orleans when he died?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Representative BOGGS. What did he do?
Mr. OSWALD. He worked for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company of
New Orleans, in the office in New Orleans.
Representative FORD. Were your mother and father living a happy normal
life at the time of his death?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, sir, I was 5 years old and I would say that they
were. Certainly I do not recall any instance that would indicate that
they were not, and I think we had a very fine family atmosphere.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the
life and relationship between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, give us
the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well
normally?
Mr. OSWALD. Well, I was, of course, older and perhaps remember more,
to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, I recall some
very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed,
and perhaps I by myself or perhaps in the presence of John was in
another room. Nothing that I can recall that was said during this
arguing other than it was just loud.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, Representative Boggs, the two boys
John and Robert were at the military school. They were home during the
summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school.
Mr. DULLES. I think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest.
He has been on for 2 hours.
Hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now?
Representative BOGGS. No, I would just like to thank the witness for
his cooperation.
Mr. OSWALD. Thank you, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you have anything? Do you have to go back?
Representative FORD. I am going to stay until we get some notice from
the House if we have any call or a vote.
Mr. DULLES. Shall we take just 5 minutes off then and it might be
agreeable.
(Short recess.)
Mr. DULLES. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Representative FORD. It would be helpful because we are likely to get
a call almost any time to go back to the House, if I could ask a few
questions.
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mr. DULLES. Okay.
Representative FORD. Mr. Oswald, what was your reaction to Lee's
discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. He had an honorable discharge he told me. I had no adverse
reaction to it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have in mind, Representative Ford, the change in
the status of that discharge?
Representative FORD. No, I was referring to the circumstances under
which he was discharged prematurely. He did get an honorable discharge
at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Were you familiar with that?
Mr. OSWALD. I was not familiar with that at the time it was going
on. Of course, I was familiar after he was released on that basis. I
remember Lee telling me, he said, "Well, I only lack a month," or a few
days anyway before his regular release was up and I believe that was
all that was said between Lee and I about it.
Representative FORD. When did you learn about the change in his
discharge?
Mr. OSWALD. Sometime during the year of 1960, through my mother. She
had advised me at that time she had received mail for Lee from the
Marine Corps or from the Navy Department, stating that generally the
reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps
even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he
did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to
appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed
without him. Then I became aware that the board's decision was an
undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, I don't recollect which.
Representative FORD. Did you take any action when you learned of
these circumstances to help your mother or to contact Lee about this
situation?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; because at this time in reference to Lee there he
had already stopped writing to both I and mother and there was no way
that we knew of to contact Lee, and mother said she was going to take
care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the
board reached a final decision.
Representative FORD. When your mother went to Washington, did she tell
you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. I was aware of it after she came back
from Washington.
Representative FORD. Did she fill you in in some detail about her
return from Washington?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; she did not. She did not go into any particular
detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she
put it, some very important and influential people in Washington. And
that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that.
Representative FORD. Did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it?
Mr. OSWALD. She volunteered this because I did not know of the trip to
Washington until after she returned from the trip to Washington. She
volunteered information to me that she had been in Washington and saw
numbers of people, different people.
Representative FORD. The principal information you have about Lee's
return from the Soviet Union is included in the letters that you have
from Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Representative FORD. Those will be submitted subsequently.
Mr. McKENZIE. They have been submitted already, Mr. Ford.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did you address me?
Mr. McKENZIE. The Commission has copies of the letters.
Representative FORD. The Commission has copies and they will be
submitted for the record.
Would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from Lee
subsequently of his experiences in the Soviet Union. Why he wanted to
come back?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I never questioned him about that because we
covered it, I believe quite fully in our letters. I was, of course,
thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the
United States and I felt there was no need to go into the reason why he
changed his mind because I believe we had covered that in the letters.
Representative FORD. At the time he indicated a desire to come back to
the United States, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I volunteered to help him any way I could on that.
He turned down the offer. He turned it down one time I believe in
letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with
his wife and the baby.
Representative FORD. When he did return, after having borrowed money
from the Federal Government, did he ever ask you for any help and
assistance in repaying the loan?
Mr. OSWALD. On his arrival in New York City, I believe the date to be
June 13, back in 1962, my wife received a telephone call from Special
Services Welfare Center located at New York City stating that Lee and
his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their
destination, Fort Worth, Tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put
it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of
the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. My wife
didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this
is what I wanted her to say. She called me at my office that day. The
banks had closed but I do have a friend in Fort Worth who was employed
at a bank, cashier, I believe his title, and I called him and asked
him if it would be possible to withdraw $200. This was not at my bank,
I would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time I
wired the money to the welfare bureau in New York, care of Lee Harvey
Oswald.
Representative FORD. And that was the money that they, Marina and Lee,
used to get to Fort Worth.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Representative FORD. Did Lee ever repay you for that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. He had actually spent a little over $100
for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at Dallas, Love Field,
on their arrival there. The next day even though I insisted that he
keep it, he returned what he had left from the $200 and he said he
would pay me back as soon as he was able to and I told him not to worry
about that, but just to take his time.
Representative FORD. How long did it take him to repay the remainder?
Mr. OSWALD. I say approximately $110 to $115 during the period he first
started to work there in Fort Worth and prior to their departure to
Dallas he repaid this $10-$20 a week from his pay check.
Representative FORD. Did you have any knowledge that Lee had become
fluent in Russian, in the Russian language, at the time he came out of
the Marine Corps?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I had not. There is also one of his first letters
from the hotel in Russia that he pointed out to me that I didn't
even know that he could write or speak Russian. He was being rather
sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. I would answer
it that I was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign
language when he was in the Marine Corps and after he got out of it.
Representative FORD. You had no prior knowledge that he was studying
Russian or had become articulate in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not.
Representative FORD. In your experiences with Lee during your lifetime,
did he ever show a skill at language, for languages?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I know of no time nor can I recall of any time
that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even
read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any
type of foreign language.
Mr. JENNER. Representative Ford, if you have reached a break, I would
like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the
letter to which you now have reference.
Would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter
to which you have lastly made reference so that I may identify our
copies?
Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, is the letter, Mr. Jenner, and the
telegram is June 14, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the
telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the
Special Welfare Services as Commission Exhibit No. 293, and the letter
of November 18, 1959, as Commission Exhibit 294.
(The telegram and letter referred to were marked Commission Exhibit
Nos. 293 and 294, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness
the originals?
Mr. McKENZIE. I have just handed them to him.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hand him the original of the letter, please?
Directing your attention to the telegram first, Mr. Oswald, which is
now marked Commission Exhibit 293, is that the original of the telegram
to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone
call through your wife on June 14, 19----
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me, June 13.
Mr. JENNER. 13?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This reply that we are referring to here now is
June 14.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. OSWALD. We were first contacted on the evening of June 13.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on
June 13, is that correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Or your wife did. And Exhibit 293 which is dated the 14th,
is what?
Mr. OSWALD. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Following the receipt of the telephone call on June 13, did
you receive or did you send any communication from or to the New York
Welfare Center?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. I sent a telegram on the afternoon of June 13,
1962, wiring a total of $200 to the Special Service Welfare Center at
New York, and also enclosing a message to Lee to contact me or to the
extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them
in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive word from New York as to when Lee and
Marina might expect to be in Dallas?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And was that by telegram or telephone?
Mr. OSWALD. This was by telephone I first received the word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive something in writing that confirmed that?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Is that document before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. JENNER. It is marked Commission Exhibit 293, and you actually
received that document which is now before you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. June 14.
Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit 293, the
document so marked and identified.
Mr. DULLES. It may be accepted.
(The document heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 293 was received
in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. The letter of November 8, 19--do you have a better copy, is
that 1959?
Mr. OSWALD. It is 1959.
Mr. DULLES. May I just ask a question, are we putting in the original
of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it?
Mr. JENNER. We are employing as a substitute for the original a
photostatic copy which has been marked Commission Exhibit 293.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chairman, could I be excused for just a moment,
please?
(Short recess.)
Mr. JENNER. In view of the witness' testimony, may I suggest to the
Commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit
since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by
Representative Ford.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify the date of Commission Exhibit 294, the
original?
Mr. OSWALD. The date of the letter is November 8, 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting is it?
Mr. OSWALD. It is in Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. It is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an
envelope, which is addressed to R. Oswald, 7313 Davenport Street, Fort
Worth, Tex., U.S.A., is that you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Are you able to identify that which appears in the upper
lefthand corner of the original.
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in Russian?
Mr. OSWALD. I would assume that it would be.
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive the letter, Commission Exhibit 294, in due
course?
Mr. OSWALD. I did. I received it on the 13th day of November 1959.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the letter to which you made reference in
responding to Representative Ford's questions?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope
now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except
that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they are.
Mr. JENNER. Does that include the scratching out that appears at the
bottom of the second page?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can
you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the
original?
Mr. OSWALD. I might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like
he had signed his name there "Lee." The second cross out, one word or
three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in
Russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, I cannot make
out.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, if I may, that the witness
might read this short letter aloud to the Commission which will,
indicate to the Commission the mental state of Lee Harvey Oswald at
the time he went to Russia in the very early days, and bring it to your
attention immediately.
Mr. DULLES. What is the date of this?
Mr. McKENZIE. November 8, 1959, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Proceed, if you will.
Mr. McKENZIE. Do you mind if I read it, Mr. Jenner, and saving his
voice a little bit?
Mr. JENNER. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. This I believe is the second letter that Robert received
from Russia after he had sent a telegram to Lee telling him what a
mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter.
"November 8, 1959. Dear Robert:
"Well, what shall we talk about? The weather perhaps? Certainly you do
not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the Soviet Union and
apply for citizenship here since I am afraid you would not be able to
comprehend my reasons.
"You really don't know anything about me. Do you know, for instance,
that I have waited to do this for well over a year? Do you know that I"
then there is a parenthesis and some Russian printing which I presume
to be Russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of
Russian which I have been studying for many months? I have been told
that I will not have to leave the Soviet Union if I did not care to.
This then is my decision. I will not leave this country, the Soviet
Union under any conditions. I will never return to the United States
which is a country I hate. Some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps
in a few years I will become a citizen of the Soviet Union, but it is
a very legal process in any event. I will not have to leave the Soviet
Union and I will never leave.
"I received your telegram and I was glad to hear from you. Only one
word bothered me. The word 'mistake' I assume you mean that I have made
a 'mistake.' It is not for you to tell me this. You cannot understand
my reasons for this very serious action. I will not speak to anyone
from the United States over the telephone since it might be tapped by
the Americans. If you wish to correspond with me you can write to the
below address, but I really don't see what we could talk about. If you
want to send me some money that I can use but I do not expect to be
able to pay it back."
Then it is signed "Lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the
bottom of the page it says, "Lee Harvey Oswald, Metropole Hotel, Room
233, Moscow, USSR," and then underneath some writing in Russian, which
I take to be Russian, which is scratched out.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mr. McKenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had
been received by Mr. Robert Oswald following Lee Harvey Oswald's taking
up residence in Russia. Is that correct, Mr. Oswald?
Mr. McKENZIE. I said it is the second or third letter. I don't know
exactly.
Mr. OSWALD. I believe, sir, it is the first letter, if I may have a
moment here.
Mr. JENNER. I thought it was the first.
Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other letter here from Santa Ana, Calif.
Mr. JENNER. That was earlier.
Mr. OSWALD. This was the first letter Lee had written to me from Russia.
Mr. DULLES. Could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival
in Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. October 13.
Mr. DULLES. October 13.
Mr. OSWALD. 1959.