Mr. JENNER. Could you fix the year?
Mr. OSWALD. This would be--I feel certain that this was the first year
that we were in military school, and the first Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. The first Christmas. That would be Christmas 1945.
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me. Let me back up earlier.
They were in Massachusetts at that time.
This would be the second year.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, the first Christmas, 1945, included the
period when your mother, Mr. Ekdahl, and Lee resided in Boston with Mr.
Ekdahl's son by a former marriage.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that the living in Benbrook, Tex., followed the
termination of the stay in Boston?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
But I do recall now the first Christmas that I was at the military
school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel
that distance in that length of time--that John went with some friends
of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--I don't
recall where.
I remember I went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during
Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. These were friends of yours in the academy?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct. And their parents agreed to that--because
they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at Christmas time more or
less by ourselves. They wanted to have us with them.
Mr. JENNER. You seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the
Benbrook, Tex., home. I take it that during a summer vacation you lived
in Benbrook, Tex., with your mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee.
Mr. OSWALD. This particular house I refer to, a native stone home--I
believe that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. So that you did have at least two summers at home while you
were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked
you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home?
Mr. OSWALD. She asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. But
at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the
academy. We did come to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt you please?
Robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on
Victor Street in Dallas. Tex., if you recall?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe she sold it at the time that they moved to
Boston, Mass.
Mr. McKENZIE. That was some time prior to Christmas of 1945, is that
correct?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
If I may ask this, sir: If someone would furnish me the date of the
divorce. I believe this would help tie down some other dates.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McKENZIE. I want to assure the Commission and counsel that the copy
of the transcript of Robert Oswald's testimony will not be given to the
press until such time as the Commission makes its final report--if at
that time.
Representative FORD. I think that is most important, that we don't
indicate that they will never be given to the press.
Mr. DULLES. No. That was made clear before you came in--that this would
be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the
Commission saw fit.
Mr. JENNER. Is it all right to proceed, sir?
Mr. DULLES. Yes, please, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. The second residence, then, was--I mean the second one
during this particular period we were talking about, was in Benbrook,
Tex.
How long, or over what period of time did your family reside in
Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. I would say at least approximately a year or a year and a
half at that particular house.
Mr. JENNER. You say in that particular house. Did they occupy another
home in Benbrook, Tex.?
Mr. OSWALD. This was--on our return from military school, the last year
we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there
in Benbrook, a little bit closer in to Fort Worth.
Mr. DULLES. This was after the divorce?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; this was after the divorce.
Representative FORD. She owned the original house in Benbrook?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not the stone house. I believe Mr. Ekdahl had
rented that house, or leased it.
Representative FORD. Then she purchased this second house?
Mr. OSWALD. That is right. After the divorce, she purchased this
smaller home.
Mr. JENNER. Until you boys returned from military academy, or at least
until the time of the divorce of your mother and Mr. Ekdahl, she was
not employed? She was home?
Mr. OSWALD. To my knowledge, that is correct. She was not employed at
that time, or during the marriage to Mr. Ekdahl--she was not employed
at any time I am aware of.
Mr. JENNER. And able to give the normal and full time and attention of
a mother to her son, Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. Well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer
vacations back in Benbrook, Tex., you had an opportunity to observe
personally on this subject, did you not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That your mother was not employed, and she was caring for
Lee during that period?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have any assistance?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, she did not. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. No household help?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; none that I recall.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question there? Maybe you are going to cover
that. I would like to ask as to--was Lee Harvey going to kindergarten
at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view?
He was 7 or 8 years old now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He was 8 years old--he was 6 years old when they moved
to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, Lee,
was 6 years old?
Mr. OSWALD. Six years old.
Mr. JENNER. And that is about the time when you enter elementary
school, is it not?
Mr. OSWALD. That I entered elementary school?
Mr. JENNER. No--children generally.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
I don't believe, however, though, that Lee at the age of 6 went to
elementary school.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what the circumstances were in that
connection, to the best of your recollection, and now.
Mr. OSWALD. All right, sir. To the best of my recollection, it was that
Mr. Ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling
with him, and Lee did not attend a school during that year.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee travel with them?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe that he did during that time.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best recollection?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. You are trying not to speculate.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record.
Mr. McKENZIE. I believe, to my best recollection, that the school
age--commencement age was 7 years old.
Mr. DULLES. I think what we are trying to get at is what was Lee
doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten?
Do you recall during those 3 years you were in the military
academy--where was Lee?
Representative FORD. When you say the school age, in Texas, you mean
the mandatory attendance age?
Mr. JAWORSKI. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, that is what I have reference to.
Mr. JAWORSKI. I recall, if I may add, at the age of 6, children were
normally sent to kindergarten in those days.
Mr. JENNER. As you have now related it to us, Mr. Oswald, in this
period, let's call it the military school period because we have
identified the time question--at the commencement Lee was then 6 years
old. And as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period.
He was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and Mr. Ekdahl
in their travels in connection with Mr. Ekdahl's business, and he was
not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school.
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I am of this opinion--he was not.
Mr. JENNER. And that was your information at the time that you and John
were attending military school?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be correct, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him
during that period--if your mother was traveling with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr. OSWALD. I believe Lee was going with them, sir, during these
travels. I don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time
they were out in Arizona. I don't recall any other places that they
traveled to. I am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently,
John and I, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or
areas that they had traveled during this period.
Mr. JENNER. Now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which
would be the year '46-'47. He is now at that time 7 years of age. Your
mother and Mr. Ekdahl and Lee were then residing in Benbrook, Tex.
Mr. OSWALD. Benbrook; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee enter elementary school at that time?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did. I don't know if the school name was
Benbrook School.
Mr. JENNER. It was an elementary school?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I know where it is located there and everything.
I believe it is closed down now.
Mr. JENNER. You learned of this during the summer vacation, or from
letters from your mother?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that
period we were aware that Lee was attending school in Benbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this point what were the relationships between
yourself and your brother John? Cordial and normal brother
relationships?
Mr. OSWALD. I might say then as now they were cordial. We always got
along. He was a little bit older than I was, of course. He had his
group of friends, I had mine. We got along just fine.
Mr. JENNER. And the relationship of your brother John and yourself
on the one hand, and Lee on the other--let us take the 6- to 7- to
8-year-old period.
Mr. OSWALD. John and I both, I feel, especially from my side, that we
were his big brothers, and when we were around Lee we took care of him.
We played together, to some extent, anyway. Perhaps our interests were
a little bit different than Lee's at that early age of his life--a
spread of 5 years between Lee and I and 7 years between Lee and John.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. That is quite a gap.
A boy 6 years old who has a brother 11 years old--that would be
you--and a brother 13 years old, that would be John--at that age, that
is quite a gap.
Did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home
during the summer vacations?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I would say we did spend quite a bit of
time--both John and I--with Lee.
I recall going fishing, things like that. But mostly I recall staying
at the house at Benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying
within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most
of the time.
I do recall on a number of occasions that Mr. Ekdahl, my mother,
and all three of us would drive into Fort Worth and go to the movie
theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from Benbrook
into Fort Worth. I recall going there quite a few times.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships
between you and John--between you boys and your mother? Was that
a pleasant one? Were there any difficulties that you now recall?
Personality-wise, for example.
Mr. OSWALD. None that I recall. At that time, I do recall one instance
out there at the house, stone house there in Benbrook--my mother was a
little upset with Mr. Ekdahl over the fact that--this was, I am sure,
the second Christmas we were there from military school.
Mr. JENNER. That would be 1947?
Mr. OSWALD. That would be 1947, Christmas 1946. He was showering us
with candies, cokes, and so forth. And mother thought that he was
overdoing it. And we argued the other way. We was on Mr. Ekdahl's side.
Mr. JENNER. But your relations with your mother, as you recall them
now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no
difficulties with her?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; pleasant memories to me.
Mr. JENNER. Anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have
when they are naughty?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty
between your mother and Mr. Ekdahl? Was that apparent at that time? Or
did that only come later?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. At that time, it was not apparent to me.
Mr. DULLES. At no time was that a factor in your life, particularly?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I would say at no time it was. In moving up
perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, I don't
remember when Mr. Ekdahl moved out of the house. At that time we were
living on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth. This was during a summer period
there. And I think this was the summer after the second year that we
attended there--this would be the summer of 1947.
Mr. DULLES. If it is agreeable, I think we will adjourn for just a
minute. It is now 11 o'clock.
Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, may I suggest that we get what the law
was in Texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend
school? I think that can be checked out very simply and put in the
record.
Mr. DULLES. Yes. I think that should be in the record.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. DULLES. The Commission will come to order. We will resume, Mr.
Jenner, with your questions.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
It may well be, Mr. Chairman, that the Exhibits 272 through 275, which
although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these
proceedings at some future date. And may I further qualify the exhibits.
Mr. DULLES. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McKenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the
witness?
Would you turn to the second page of Exhibit No. 272, Mr. Oswald? Are
you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, I am.
Mr. JENNER. And would you identify them, please, in the order in which
they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the
persons who purported to have signed?
Mr. OSWALD. My signature, Robert L. Oswald, I signed it. Witnessed by
Henry Baer, Joan Connelly, and Pete White. And they are known to me.
Mr. JENNER. Did they affix those signatures in your presence?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. JENNER. And they are persons known to you?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify them for the record?
Mr. OSWALD. Mr. Henry Baer is a partner in William A. McKenzie's law
firm, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. He is Mr. McKenzie's partner?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes.
Miss Joan Connelly is the secretary in that firm.
And Mr. Pete White is an associate partner in the law firm of Mr.
McKenzie.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, that that document was executed in Mr.
McKenzie's office.
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, Mr. Jenner, may I interrupt at this point? I would
like to add for the record that I was not present at the time that this
letter was executed or witnessed. However, I did dictate it in the
presence of Mr. Oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course,
to my partner, Henry Baer.
Mr. JENNER. Is Miss Connelly your secretary?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you take the second letter in that group, and
give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the
situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether
it was signed in your presence and where.
Mr. OSWALD. Commission Exhibit No. 273--I was not present when this
letter was signed.
Mr. JENNER. Does the letter bear your signature?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it does not.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported
to have signed it?
Mr. OSWALD. I am not familiar with the signature--I am familiar with
the signature of Mrs. Marina N. Oswald. I am not familiar with the
signature of Mr. Declan P. Ford or his wife, Katherine N. Ford.
I am familiar with the signature of Joan Connelly, Mr. McKenzie's
secretary.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please identify who Mr. and Mrs. Ford are?
Mr. OSWALD. The best way I could do that, I believe, is that they
are friends of Marina N. Oswald. I became acquainted with Mrs. Ford
on Wednesday 2 weeks ago, whatever date that is, and Mr. Ford the
following day.
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances under which you became
acquainted with Mrs. Ford?
Mr. OSWALD. Pardon me just a minute.