The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. Mrs. Oswald, you may
continue with your statement.
Mrs. OSWALD. On the way leaving, I remarked to Mr. Doyle that I had
forgotten one very important factor in the story.
I had in Mrs. Paine's home, when Marina closed the door, and I was in
the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police
station that they had showed her Lee's gun and asked her if that was
Lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that Lee had a gun, but she
could not say whether that was Lee's gun or not. But that she knew that
Lee had a gun.
Mr. RANKIN. When was this?
Mrs. OSWALD. This was in Mrs. Paine's home the night of November 22,
when we came from the jail. She told me that she told the police. I am
going to explain, because I don't want to be put in why I didn't say it.
Mr. Mark Lane had hoped to come before the Commission, and he wanted to
ask me two questions. He didn't say what the questions were. But I know
the affidavit presented to the Warren Commission passed on that. And so
that is why I had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking Mr.
Lane would bring it up. But I immediately told Mr. Doyle when I left,
that Mr. Lane not being here I should have made that statement.
Was there something else I told you?
Mr. DOYLE. No. I think that was the matter you had mentioned to me,
ma'am.
Mr. RANKIN. You mean the gun or the picture of the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--the gun. The police showed Marina a gun--showed
Marina a gun, and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun, because Marina
had testified at the police station, she told me that Lee had a gun in
Mrs. Paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to
assassinate the President, that the police had and showed it to Marina,
and asked Marina if that was Lee's gun that was in the garage. She said
she didn't know--that Lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know
whether that was the gun or not.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any discussion with Marina about the gun after
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--when she said that, that was it. Any comments--as
I said before--that was it.
Now, where did I finish, please, so I can continue?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, you had gotten to the Six Flags, and you had heard
about your son being killed. And then you had gotten to the Parkland
Hospital.
Mrs. OSWALD. We were through at the Parkland Hospital.
Mr. RANKIN. You had gotten through with the Parkland Hospital.
Mrs. OSWALD. And then we got to the chief of police's home in Irving.
And we finished that. So now we are at the Six Flags.
Mr. RANKIN. Correct.
Mrs. OSWALD. So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags.
I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags.
My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was
continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned.
I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research
from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them.
All the papers were at home.
I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were
getting the original papers, because I know that each department in
the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing
condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture.
They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape.
I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that
Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though.
Mr. RANKIN. This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me
in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son
was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the
State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that
they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short
questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to
talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there
were two other men.
Mr. RANKIN. Then Mr. Howard was what date?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was
so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would
put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date
of the funeral--I remember now.
Mr. RANKIN. November 25th?
Mrs. OSWALD. Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of
the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So
I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection.
And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw
Robert crying.
Wait, I am ahead of my story.
You have to understand this. As a family, we separated--not maybe for
any particular reason, it is just the way we live. I am not a mother
that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on.
I am a working mother. I do 24-hour duty. So I am not that type mother,
where I am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to
come to.
So I said to Mike Howard, "I would like Robert to hear this. Maybe he
will learn something." Because Robert never did want to know about
my trip to Washington. He doesn't know. Robert never was interested
in anything. Lee did not want to know about my trip to Washington.
So I thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has
happened, for Mr. Robert Oswald to know some of these things that his
mother has known all of these years.
So I started.
Then Robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he
was crying bitterly. So I ended the tape--I would say I talked
approximately 10 minutes. I ended the tape saying, "I'm sorry, but my
thoughts have left me, because my son is crying."
I thought for a moment that Robert was crying because of what I was
saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because
I tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to Washington. But
Robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could
not get a minister at my son's grave.
They had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my
son's grave--for church. And that is why Robert was crying bitterly. So
that ended the testimony. That little while I testified, that ended it.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were
questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard----
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir. I was just talking.
Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?
Mrs. OSWALD. Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape.
Mr. RANKIN. Didn't he ask you questions?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be.
But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a
very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My
thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly."
That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do
not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story.
And that is the only time.
It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while.
They did not want to hear anything from me.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't think, then, that at that time there were
questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you?
Mrs. OSWALD. From me--no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what
they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They
said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I
am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even
though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun
doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him."
If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking,
and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I
did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And
that is the point that has bothered me.
Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called
Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have
20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got
it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, what happened after that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now--we got off of that. About Robert crying?
Mr. RANKIN. You said that that ended the interview with Mr. Howard.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that ended the interview with Mr. Howard, because
Robert was crying. I was not consulted. I want you to know this, too. I
was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's
funeral.
What I know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately 1
hour before the time for my son to be buried. My son Robert knew.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Marina was consulted?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not know. And I am assuming that she was. You see,
Mr. Gregory taught Russian to Marina. And I believe Marina might have
been consulted. But I do not know whether she was consulted or not. But
I was not consulted. And since then--we will go on to the story. They
have put a marker on the grave. I have not been consulted. I have found
out my son is encased in cement, and I did not know anything about it
until I investigated and asked the man at the cemetery.
They did not consult me about anything, never have. I want that made
clear--because that is the part I cannot understand.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know whether the laws of Texas give the widow the
right to say what shall be done?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, naturally, she is his wife, and I am just the
mother. But from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? Law and
right--but from a moral standpoint, I should go out to the graveyard
and see a marker? I should find out from strangers that my son is now
in a concrete vault?
Mr. RANKIN. Well, then, did you go to the funeral?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, let me get--we will get to the story of the
ministers.
Mr. RANKIN. All right.
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I was not consulted. Had Robert asked me--they are
Lutheran, we are raised Lutherans. I have no church affiliation. I have
learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. I am not talking
against the church. But I go to church all day long, I meditate. And my
work requires that I don't go to church. I am working on Sunday most of
the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church,
that I work for, the families, have never once said, "Well, I will stay
home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, Mrs. Oswald,
today."
You see, I am expected to work on Sunday.
So that is why--I have my own church. And sometimes I think it is
better than a wooden structure. Because these same people that expect
me to work on Sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on
Wednesday night--I don't consider them as good a Christian as I am--I
am sorry.
Well--I would not have let Robert be so upset trying to get a Lutheran
minister. If he could not get a Lutheran minister, I would have called
upon another minister, because there would have been many, many
ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and
help the sorrowing family.
Well, a Reverend French from Dallas came out to Six Flags and we sat on
the sofa.
Reverend French was in the center, I and Robert on the side. And Robert
was crying bitterly and talking to Reverend French and trying to get
him to let Lee's body go to church. And he was quoting why he could not.
So then I intervened and said, "Well, if Lee is a lost sheep, and that
is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should
go into church. The good people do not need to go to church. Let's
say he is called a murderer. It is the murderers and all we should be
concerned about".
And that agent--I am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man
right here----