Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I know this shirt. I gave it to him. The sweater is
also his.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was
wearing when he came home Thursday night, November 21, 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. On Thursday I think he wore this shirt.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that Exhibit 150?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he had that jacket, also.
Mr. RANKIN. Exhibit 162?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the pants, Exhibit 157?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I am not sure. This is as much as I can remember.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
Mr. THORNE. I identify this photograph, which is marked Exhibit 164
as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to Mrs. Oswald, and
recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer all of the Exhibits, Nos. 146 to 164, inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit Nos. 146 to
164, inclusive, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, do you remember any information or documents
under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed
any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not
presented here?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have nothing else. Everything has been taken from me.
Mr. RANKIN. Some of the Commissioners have a question or two, or a few
questions. If you will permit them, they would like to address them to
you.
Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, this question has already been asked
you, but I would like to ask it again.
I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that
your husband killed President Kennedy.
Mrs. OSWALD. Regretfully, yes.
Representative BOGGS. During the weeks and months prior to the
assassination--and I think this question has also been asked--did you
ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards
President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Representative BOGGS. What motive would you ascribe to your husband in
killing President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came
to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to
get into history. But now that I have heard a part of the translation
of some of the documents, I think that there was some political
foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware.
Representative BOGGS. By that, do you mean that your husband acted in
concert with someone else?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, only alone.
Representative BOGGS. You are convinced that his action was his action
alone, that he was influenced by no one else?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I am convinced.
Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a Communist?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me when we were in New Orleans that he was a
Communist, but I didn't believe him, because I said, "What kind of a
Communist are you if you don't like the Communists in Russia?"
Representative BOGGS. Did he like the Communists in the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. He considered them to be on a higher level and more
conscious than the Communists in Russia.
Representative BOGGS. Did you consider your husband a normal man in the
usual sense of the term?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was always a normal man, but where it concerned his
ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, I did not consider him
normal.
Representative BOGGS. Maybe I used the wrong terminology. Did you
consider him mentally sound?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was smart and capable. Only he did not use his
capabilities in the proper direction. He was not deprived of reason--he
was not a man deprived of reason.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, did you have any questions to ask?
Mrs. OSWALD. No one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's
thoughts, as I could not read Lee's thoughts. But that is only my
opinion.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Oswald, some of the questions that I ask you you
may have answered--because I have been out at times.
I believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed
opposition to or dislike of the United States or of its political or
economic system, is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. As far as I know, he expressed more dissatisfaction
with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not
enlighten me as to his political thoughts.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your
presence that the economic system of the United States should be
changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never proposed that, but from his conversations it
followed that it would be necessary to change it. But he didn't propose
any methods.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that
the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of
our country were changed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he never said that to me.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever express to you any hostility towards any
particular official of the United States?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he didn't like Walker, but I don't know
whether you could call him an official.
Senator COOPER. May I ask if you ever heard anyone express to him
hostility towards President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Senator COOPER. More specifically, I will ask--did you know Mr.
Frazier?
Representative BOGGS. Wesley Frazier.
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work.
Senator COOPER. You never heard him or anyone else express to your
husband any hostility towards President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Senator COOPER. Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Senator COOPER. That is all I have.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, have you anything further you would like to
ask?
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, I only have one question. Mr. Rankin has
kindly asked several questions I had during the course of this hearing,
these hearings the last 3 days.
Apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any
other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the
act of assassinating the President? That he was trying to accomplish
something?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish,
because I don't understand him.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, did you have anything further?
Representative FORD. Mrs. Oswald after President Kennedy was
assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a
number of authorities. In the questioning he denied that he kept a
rifle at Mrs. Paine's home. He denied shooting President Kennedy. And
he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him
holding the rifle and the holster.
Now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe Lee
Oswald killed President Kennedy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. That is all.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, just one or two other questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Mrs. Oswald, when you lived in New Orleans with
your husband, and he was active in this alleged Cuban committee, did
you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Representative BOGGS. Were there any members of the committee other
than your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was no one. There was no one. There was no
organization in New Orleans. Only Lee was there.
Representative BOGGS. One other question. Did he also dislike Russia
when he was in Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative BOGGS. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mrs. Oswald, you have been a very cooperative
witness. You have helped the Commission. We are grateful to you for
doing this. We realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go
through.
Mrs. OSWALD. It was difficult to speak all the truth.
The CHAIRMAN. We hope you know that the questions we have asked you
have--none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but
only to report to the world what the truth is.
Now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have
testified to. You may read it, and if there is anything that you think
was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it,
you may do so.
Mrs. OSWALD. I unfortunately--I cannot--since it will be in English.
The CHAIRMAN. Your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out
something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel
free to do that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he will read it.
The CHAIRMAN. And if in the future we should like to ask you some more
questions about something that develops through the investigation,
would you be willing to come back and talk to us again?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. We hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. But if it
is, you would be willing to come, would you not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Representative FORD. Mr. Chairman--I would just like to suggest that
if Mrs. Oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be
called to the attention of the Commission through her attorney, Mr.
Thorne.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, of course. That is the proper procedure.
Now, Mr. Thorne, you have been very cooperative with the Commission. We
appreciate that cooperation. We hope that if anything new should come
to your attention that would be helpful to the Commission, you would
feel free to communicate with us.
Mr. THORNE. Certainly, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you care to say anything at this time?
Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to make a closing
statement.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And may I say, also, if you have any questions you
would like to ask Mrs. Oswald before you make your statement, you may
do that.
Mr. THORNE. There are none.
Representative BOGGS. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to say Mr. Thorne
has been very helpful.
Mr. THORNE. During the noon recess, Mrs. Oswald made four requests of
me to make before this Commission.
You have anticipated several of them, but I think there are one or two
that need to be covered.
To begin with, she wanted me to express to you, Mr. Chairman, and
members of your Commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the
consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these
proceedings. She feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make
her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and
tragic events we have been discussing.
Point No. 2, she did want to make it quite clear to the Commission
that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on
down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to
Washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient.
The third point you have already covered. She did request that she be
given a copy of these proceedings, which I told her she would receive,
and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her
identification and examination.
Mrs. OSWALD. And copies of some of the letters?
Mr. THORNE. This will all be attached as exhibits.
And the final point was this. She has been, as you know, under
protective custody of the Secret Service from shortly after the
assassination. She has been most grateful for this protection. The
Secret Service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this
matter. She is extremely grateful for this protection they have given
her.
I haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. I
don't know. It is her request, however, that, at this point she feels
the protection is no longer necessary. She feels that at this time she
can walk among people with her head held high. She has nothing to hide.
She is not afraid.
She feels that the Secret Service has performed a noble service to her.
And this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part
she wants to get rid of them.
I have noticed that since we have been in Washington she resents being
guided. She feels she can find her way by herself.
And, if the Commission would give this matter consideration--we don't
know whom to go to. I haven't thought about it. I don't know who has
suggested the Secret Service continue protecting her. It is a matter,
of course, that ought to be considered.
But it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like
to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection.
I point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with
Mr. and Mrs. Martin. They have a rather modest home. Three bedrooms. It
has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. The house
is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house.
This does burden the family. This is not a request on the part of the
Martins. They welcome this protection. This is something she thinks in
terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held
back.
Is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. What I wanted to say, Mr. Thorne has said.
Mr. THORNE. For my own part, gentlemen, thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, we can understand Mrs. Oswald's desire to
live a perfectly normal life with her children. Whatever has been done,
as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help
during these terrible days that she has been going through.
But she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection,
except what she might ask for. And so you are perfectly free, Mrs.
Oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone.
And should anyone interfere with you, I hope you would call it to the
attention of the Commission.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you very much.
Mr. THORNE. Mr. Chairman, may I add one point, please?
For our purposes, I would appreciate it if this matter of removal,
assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also.
I would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least
temporarily--that this protection is available. I don't feel any qualms
myself. I don't feel there are any problems. But I think the matter of
Mrs. Marguerite Oswald has come up. There may be some problem from some
sources.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thorne, I think the correct answer to that would
be--and it would be the answer we would give--that Mrs. Oswald, in the
future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she
asks for.
Mr. THORNE. Thank you very much, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I want to say also before the session adjourns that we
are indebted to Mr. Krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted.
Next to the witness, I am sure he has had the hardest position in this
whole hearing. And we appreciate the manner in which he has done it.
Mr. KRIMER. Thank you very much, sir.
Mrs. OSWALD. He is a very good interpreter.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. If there is nothing further to come before the
session, we will adjourn.
Mrs. OSWALD. I am very grateful to all of you. I didn't think among
Americans I would find so many friends.
The CHAIRMAN. You have friends here.
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Monday, February 10, 1964_