Mr. RANKIN. Which you have identified?
Mrs. OSWALD. You remember you had a letter which mentioned Mexico and
Kostin, it was that envelope.
Mr. RANKIN. Is this Exhibit 16 that you are referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. You see the date is the 12th. You see, I can't
remember a specific date, but some event I can connect with it brings
it back.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember whether your husband returned from Dallas
to Irving at any time during that week?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems he came on Saturday or Friday for the weekend.
Perhaps he didn't come. I am mixed up as to which weekends he did and
didn't come.
Mr. RANKIN. We have a statement from a Mr. Hutchison of the supermarket
that I referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his
supermarket on November 13. Do you recall anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. If the 12th was a Monday and the 13th a Tuesday, Lee was
at work. He couldn't have been there.
Mr. RANKIN. In one of your statements that you have given the FBI
and the Secret Service you indicated that this particular weekend
your husband stayed in Dallas--that is the 15th through the 17th of
November. Does that refresh your memory?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes--the 15th to the 17th he remained in Dallas. That is,
he didn't come that weekend.
But on the 13th he was not in Irving.
Mr. RANKIN. That would be the weekend before the assassination, to
refresh your memory again.
Mrs. OSWALD. You see, this is why I was not surprised that he didn't
come--that he came, rather, he had not come on Friday and Saturday, and
on Sunday I called him over the telephone and this is when he had a
quarrel over the fictitious name.
By the way, he didn't come because I told him not to come. He had
wanted to come, he had telephoned.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you tell him about not coming?
Mrs. OSWALD. That he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not
convenient for Ruth that the whole family be there, live there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said, "As you wish. If you don't want me to come, I
won't."
Mr. RANKIN. Were you quite angry with him about the use of the
fictitious name?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And when he called me over the phone a second time I
hung up and would not talk to him.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell him why you were so angry?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "After all, when will all your foolishness come to
an end? All of these comedies. First one thing then another. And now
this fictitious name."
I didn't understand why. After all, it was nothing terrible if people
were to find out that he had been in Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say when you said that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That I didn't understand anything.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember an incident when he said you were a
Czechoslovakian rather than a Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. We lived on Elsbeth Street, and he had told the
landlady that I was from Czechoslovakia. But I didn't know about it,
and when the landlady asked me, I told her I was from Russia. I told
Lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. That the landlady was very nice and she was very good to
me and she was even pleased with the fact that I was from Russia.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to your husband saying that you were from
some country other than Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am from Russia. I can
even be proud of the fact that I am Russian. And there is no need for
me to hide it. Every person should be proud of his nationality and not
be afraid or ashamed of it.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say in response to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing.
Mr. RANKIN. When he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name
Hidell?
Mrs. OSWALD. Where?
Mr. RANKIN. When you called him that time.
Mrs. OSWALD. Where?
Mr. RANKIN. On the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a
fictitious name given.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what name he had given. He said that he was
under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name Hidell?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that he used such a name?
Mrs. OSWALD. In New Orleans.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn that?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he was interviewed by some anti-Cubans, he used
this name and spoke of an organization. I knew there was no such
organization. And I know that Hidell is merely an altered Fidel, and I
laughed at such foolishness. My imagination didn't work that way.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him about it at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it
would be discovered anyhow.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the weekend of November 15th to 17th, which was the
weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or
how he spent that weekend while he was in Dallas?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into
Dallas, that trip, for that weekend?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think that he took the rifle on Thursday
when he came the next time, but I didn't see him take it. I assume
that. I cannot know it.
Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time in New Orleans that you described, and
the time you called to Dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of
any other time your husband was using an assumed name?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, no more.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you think he was using that assumed name in connection
with this Fair Play for Cuba activity or something else?
Mrs. OSWALD. The name Hidell, which you pronounced Hidell, was in
connection with his activity with the non-existing organization.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you and your husband live under the name Hidell in New
Orleans?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. You were never identified as the Hidells, as far as you
knew, while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. No one knew that Lee was Hidell.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you discover it, then?
Mrs. OSWALD. I already said that when I listened to the radio, they
spoke of that name, and I asked him who, and he said that it was he.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that after the arrest?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember when the interview took place, before the
arrest or after.
Mr. RANKIN. But it was in regard to some interview for radio
transmission, and he had identified himself as Hidell, rather than
Oswald, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. No--he represented himself as Oswald, but he said that the
organization which he supposedly represents is headed by Hidell.
Mr. RANKIN. He was using the name Hidell, then, to have a fictitious
president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is
that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the
telescopic lens, on the back porch at New Orleans, and also his using
the bolt action that you heard from time to time.
Will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I cannot describe that in greater detail. I can only say
that Lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and
clean it. No, he didn't clean it at that time.
Yes--twice he did clean it.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens,
too, and sighting the gun on different objects?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. The rifle was always with this. I don't know
exactly how he practiced, because I was in the house, I was busy. I
just knew that he sits there with his rifle. I was not interested in it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this during the light of the day or during the darkness?
Mrs. OSWALD. During darkness.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the
porch there with the gun?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband
call you at all by telephone?
Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me on Monday, after I had called him on
Sunday, and he was not there.
Or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he
was known by another name.
On Monday he called several times, but after I hung up on him and
didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. He then arrived on
Thursday.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you he was coming Thursday?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he was using the assumed name of Lee as
his last name?
Mrs. OSWALD. I know it now, but I did not ever know it before.
Mr. RANKIN. Thursday was the 21st. Do you recall that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And the assassination was on the 22d.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is very hard to forget.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on
Thursday?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the
preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me but I would not answer him, and he
was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry--he was upset.
I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent quite a bit of
time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.
Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer him. He
tried to start a conversation with me several times, but I would not
answer. And he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because
this upsets him.
On that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas. He said
that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being
so angry was the fact that we were not living together. That if I want
to he would rent an apartment in Dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want
me to remain with Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in
Dallas.
He repeated this not once but several times, but I refused. And he said
that once again I was preferring my friends to him, and that I didn't
need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth until
the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this
was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we
were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine,
because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you. That it would be better if he bought something
for himself--that I would manage.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested
that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched
television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9
o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it
seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.
In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't
get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was
quite usual.
And then after I fed Rachel, I took a look to see whether Lee was
here, but he had already gone. This was already after the police had
come. Ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage
and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on
later--that the light was on in the morning. And she guessed that Lee
was in the garage.
But I didn't see it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in
the garage, what time of the day?
Mrs. OSWALD. She thought that it was during the evening, because the
light remained on until morning.
Mr. RANKIN. Why did you stay awake until 11:30? Were you still angry
with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not for that reason, but because I had to wash dishes
and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath.
Mr. RANKIN. This is a good place for a recess, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. We can take a recess now.
We will recess now for 10 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. Rankin?
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, why did the use of this false name by your
husband make you so angry? Would you explain that a little bit?
Mrs. OSWALD. It would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if
her husband used a fictitious name. And then, of course, I thought that
if he would see that I don't like it and that I explained to him that
this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all
of these things that your husband was doing, the Fair Play for Cuba and
the Walker incident, and then this fictitious name business?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course. I was tired of it.
Every day I was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. I couldn't
wait to find out what else would he think of.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss that with your husband at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that no one needed anything like that, that for no
reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that
he was more important.
Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say?
Mrs. OSWALD. He would seem to agree, but then would continue again in
two or three days.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his
agreement with you to not have another Walker incident or anything like
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I generally didn't think that Lee would repeat anything
like that. Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him.
But I didn't believe that he would repeat it. It was hard to believe.
Mr. RANKIN. I wasn't clear about when Mrs. Paine thought that your
husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. Can you
give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the morning she thought about it. But she didn't attach
any significance to it at that time. It was only after the police had
come that this became more significant for her.
Mr. RANKIN. So she thought it was in the morning after he got up from
his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the
light?
Mrs. OSWALD. In my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during
the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. At
least that is what she said to me. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went
to bed at 9 o'clock?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. At first it seems it wasn't nine, it was
perhaps ten o'clock when Lee went to bed. And first, Ruth went to her
room and then Lee went. He was there after her.
Mr. RANKIN. So he might have been in the garage sometime between 9 and
10? Was that what you thought?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But I think that he might have even been there in the
morning and turned on the light.
Mr. RANKIN. On this evening when you were angry with him, had he come
home with the young Mr. Frazier that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. When was the last time that you had noticed the rifle
before that day?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said that I saw--for the first and last time I saw the
rifle about a week after I had come to Mrs. Paine.
But, as I said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and I was sure when
the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it
was all rolled together. And, therefore, when they took the blanket and
the rifle was not in it, I was very much surprised.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe for the Commission the place in the
garage where the rifle was located?
Mrs. OSWALD. When you enter the garage from the street it was in the
front part, the left.
Mr. RANKIN. By the left you mean left of the door?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on
the floor.
It was always in the same place.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. Next to it there were some--next to the rifle there were
some suitcases and Ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the
kids used to play.
Mr. RANKIN. The way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you
tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just
left there at any time?
Mrs. OSWALD. It always had the appearance of having something inside
of it. But I only looked at it really once, and I was always sure the
rifle was in it. Therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle
was taken. I only assumed that it was on Thursday, because Lee had
arrived so unexpectedly for some reason.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see
you Thursday was to make up?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think there were two reasons. One was to make up with
me, and the other to take the rifle. This is--this, of course, is not
irreconcilable.
Mr. RANKIN. But you think he came to take the rifle because of what you
learned since. Is that it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Before this incident about the fictitious name, were you
and your husband getting along quite well?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he seem to like his job at the depository?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because it was not dirty work.
Mr. RANKIN. Had he talked about getting any other job?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. When he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get
some work connected with photography rather than this work. He liked
this work relatively speaking--he liked it. But, of course, he wanted
to get something better.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you like the photographic work?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. It was interesting for him. When he would see his
work in the newspaper he would always point it out.
Mr. RANKIN. He had a reference in his notebook to the word "Microdot".
Do you know what he meant by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did your husband get along with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he
didn't like her. He told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid
woman. She is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever say anything to indicate he thought Mrs. Paine
was coming between him and you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine say anything about your husband?
Mrs. OSWALD. She didn't say anything bad. I don't know what she
thought. But she didn't say anything bad.
Perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me.
She didn't want to hurt me by saying anything.
Mr. RANKIN. I have understood from your testimony that you did not
really care to go to Russia but your husband was the one that was
urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And later he talked about not only you and your child
going, but also his going with you, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what caused him to make that change?
Mrs. OSWALD. At one time--I don't remember whether he was working at
that time or not--he was very sad and upset. He was sitting and writing
something in his notebook. I asked him what he was writing and he said,
"It would be better if I go with you."
Then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when I
came in I saw that he was crying. I didn't know why. But, of course,
when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and I didn't
start to question him about why.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him
alone?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you at that time say anything to him about your all
staying in this country and getting along together?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him, of course, that it would be better for us to
stay here. But if it was very difficult for him and if he was always
worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went.
Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of the 21st, was anything said about curtain
rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I didn't have any.
Mr. RANKIN. He didn't say anything like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you discuss the weekend that was coming up?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he probably would not come on Friday, and he
didn't come--he was in jail.
Mr. RANKIN. Did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him
to be more disturbed than usual?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, not particularly. At least he didn't talk about that
quarrel when he came. Usually he would remember about what happened.
This time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions,
just wanted to make up.
Mr. RANKIN. I understood that when you didn't make up he was quite
disturbed and you were still angry, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. I wasn't really very angry. I, of course, wanted to make
up with him. But I gave the appearance of being very angry. I was
smiling inside, but I had a serious expression on my face.
Mr. RANKIN. And as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed
than usual?
Mrs. OSWALD. As always, as usual. Perhaps a little more. At least when
he went to bed he was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you think that had anything to do with the assassination
the next day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Perhaps he was thinking about all of that. I don't think
that he was asleep. Because, in the morning when the alarm clock went
off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and I
thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. At least then I
didn't think about it. Now I think so.
Mr. RANKIN. When he said he would not be home that Friday evening, did
you ask him why?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that since he was home on Thursday, that it
wouldn't make any sense to come again on Friday, that he would come for
the weekend.
Mr. RANKIN. Did that cause you to think that he had any special plans
to do anything?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the
Paines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet
in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but
I never counted it.
Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was
in the wallet?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me
whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I
hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told
me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June--and for the
children.
This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he take the money from the wallet from time to time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put
the rest in the wallet.
I know that the money that was found there, that you think this was
not Lee's money. But I know for sure that this was money that he had
earned. He had some money left after his trip to Mexico. Then we
received an unemployment compensation check for $33. And then Lee paid
only $7 or $8 for his room. And I know how he eats, very little.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what his ordinary lunch was?
Mrs. OSWALD. Peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and
he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke.
Mr. RANKIN. And what about his evening meal? Do you know what he ate in
the evening meal?
Mrs. OSWALD. Usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert.
Mr. RANKIN. Where would he have that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He loved bananas. They were inexpensive.
The place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. He said that
there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal?
Mrs. OSWALD. About a dollar, $1.30.
Mr. RANKIN. What about his breakfast? Do you know what he had for
breakfast ordinarily?
Mrs. OSWALD. He never had breakfast. He just drank coffee and that is
all.
Not because he was trying to economize. Simply he never liked to eat.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, will you note the presence of Mr. Ruben Efron
in the hearing room. He also knows Russian.
On November 21, the day before the assassination that you were
describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about
President Kennedy's trip or proposed trip to Texas, Dallas and the Fort
Worth area?
Mrs. OSWALD. I asked Lee whether he knew where the President would
speak, and told him that I would very much like to hear him and to see
him. I asked him how this could be done.
But he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any
further on that subject.