The President's Commission met at 10 a.m., on February 5, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator Richard
B. Russell, Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs,
Representative Gerald R. Ford, Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Leon I. Gopadze and William D. Krimer, interpreters;
John M. Thorne, attorney for Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald; and Ruben Efron.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order. We will continue with
the examination. Mr. Rankin, you may proceed.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, have you become familiar with the English
language to some extent?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have never studied it, but simple language I do
understand.
Mr. RANKIN. We had reports that you made some study at the Southern
Methodist University. Is there anything to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How about Mr. Gregory? Did you study English with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any formal aid or teaching of English by
anyone?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had no formal instructions in it, but a Russian
acquaintance, Mr. Bouhe, wrote down some Russian phrases, and I would
try to translate them into English.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, since you have been living with the Martins, I assume
you haven't had any Russian friends to try to translate English for
you, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. If you do not count Mr. Gopadze and the FBI interpreter, I
have not been in contact with any Russians.
Mr. RANKIN. And there were considerable periods during the time you
have been living with the Martins when neither Mr. Gopadze or the FBI
agent or translator were present, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. So have you been able to learn a little more English while
you have been with the Martins than you had before, because of that
experience?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only a little, I think.
At least it is very useful for me to live with an American family who
do not speak Russian.
Mr. RANKIN. That has helped you to learn some English, more than when
you were living with Mrs. Paine, who could speak Russian to you, I take
it.
Mrs. OSWALD. Of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any French?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. Other than Russian, I don't know any other language.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you were with the Martins the Secret Service
people were there, too, were they not?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they helped me a great deal.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to the Secret Service people being there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they treat you properly?
Mrs. OSWALD. Excellently--very well.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you object to their being around and looking out for
you as they did?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. How did the Martins treat you during the time you have been
with them?
Mrs. OSWALD. Better than I--could have been expected.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you been pleased with the way they have treated you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am very pleased and I am very grateful to them.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, Mr. Thorne is your attorney. I understand that he
told the Civil Liberties Union people of Dallas it was all right for
the Secret Service people to be there with you and that you liked
that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. Was that
satisfactory to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he speaking for you when he said that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because I received a letter from Mr. Olds, a leader
of that union. In that letter he said that he sympathizes with my
situation, that he supposed that the Secret Service treated me very
badly and stopped me from doing something.
I answered him in a letter written in Russian which was later
translated into English that all of this was not the truth.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced
to do anything there while you were at the Martins that was not
satisfactory to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was not forced to do anything that I did not want to.
Mr. RANKIN. Anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during
that time or from that time up to the present--I withdraw that.
Was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were
willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present?
Mrs. OSWALD. Generally some people wanted to talk to me but they
couldn't do so simply because I did not want to.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to
someone during that period of time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Everything depended only on me.
Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you did want to talk to someone or see
someone, you were always able to do that, were you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did meet with Katya Ford, my former Russian friend.
Mr. RANKIN. And you were always able to meet with anyone that you
wanted to, is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, it has been claimed that Mrs. Ruth Paine tried to see
you at various times and was unable to do so. Can you tell us about
that?
Mrs. OSWALD. She is trying very hard to come to see me, but I have no
desire to meet with her. I think that she is trying to do that for
herself, rather than for me.
Mr. RANKIN. And whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to
see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that
right?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What about the newspaper and television and radio people?
Have some of those tried to see you while you were at the Martins?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, they have tried.
Mr. RANKIN. And have you done anything about their efforts to see you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which
I am now, and therefore I didn't want to see them. But I did have a
television interview in which I said that I am relatively satisfied
with my situation, that I am not too worried and I thanked people for
their attention towards me.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe to us your relationship with your
mother-in-law now?
Mrs. OSWALD. After all of this happened I met with her at the police
station. I was, of course, very sorry for her as Lee's mother. I was
always sorry for her because Lee did not want to live with her.
I understood her motherly concern. But in view of the fact of
everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the
press, I do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and I
think that part of the guilt is hers. I do not accuse her, but I think
that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with Lee lies
with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should
have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership
on her part, guidance. If she were in contact with my children now, I
do not want her to cripple them.
Mr. RANKIN. Has she tried to see you since the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, all the time.
Mr. RANKIN. And have you seen her since that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Accidentally we met at the cemetery on a Sunday when I
visited there, but I didn't want to meet with her, and I left. She
didn't understand that I didn't want to meet with her and she accused
the Secret Service personnel of preventing her from seeing me.
Mr. RANKIN. Except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have
you seen her since the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. RANKIN. At the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe
any difference in her attitude towards you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, of course.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe that difference that you observed?
Mrs. OSWALD. At first I said that I didn't see her any more. But after
Lee was in jail I lived with her for some time at that inn.
Mr. RANKIN. The Six Flags?
Mrs. OSWALD. The Six Flags. And inasmuch as I lived with her and met
with her every day I could see--I was able to see the change. At least
if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. I think that
she does not like me. I don't think that she simply is able to like me.
There were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone,
there were hysterics. Everyone was guilty of everything and no one
understood her.
Perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least I do not want to live with
her and to listen to scandals every day.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in
connection with the assassination?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, she did not accuse me of anything.
Mr. RANKIN. In your presence, at any time, did she accuse Ruth Paine of
being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, she never accused Ruth Paine. She simply did not like
her.
Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you why she didn't like Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. She told me but I didn't understand it because it was in
English. She expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that
that would get across and I would understand.
Mr. RANKIN. You said that you didn't want to see Ruth Paine because you
thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. Will you tell us
what you meant by that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that she wants to see me in her own selfish
interests. She likes to be well known, popular, and I think that
anything that I should write her, for example, would wind up in the
press.
The reason that I think so is that the first time that we were in jail
to see Lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying
to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed
her children to look this way and look that way. And the first
photographs that appeared were of me with her children.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that in the note your husband left about the
Walker incident, that there was a reference to the Red Cross, and that
you might get help there? Did you ever obtain any help from the Red
Cross before that date?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, never.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know any reason why your husband put that in the
note?
Mrs. OSWALD. Well, because the Red Cross is an organization in all
countries which helps people who need help, and in case I needed help,
since I have no relatives here, I would be able to obtain it from this
organization.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not your husband received any help
from the Red Cross in money payments while he was in Russia?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I don't.
Mr. RANKIN. In that note you remember that there was a reference to an
embassy--it didn't say which embassy. Do you know what embassy your
husband was referring to?
Mrs. OSWALD. He had in mind the Soviet Embassy.
Mr. RANKIN. You told about the incident of De Mohrenschildt coming to
the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss,
and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think
that you might have told. You have described that.
Now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that De
Mohrenschildt knew anything about the Walker incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. Simply he
thought that this was something that Lee was likely to do. He simply
made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation
or from something that De Mohrenschildt said at some time?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, I know this, myself. I know that Lee could not have
told him. And, otherwise, how would he have known?
Mr. RANKIN. From your knowledge, were they close enough so that your
husband would have made De Mohrenschildt a confidant about anything
like that?
Mrs. OSWALD. No matter how close Lee might be to anyone, he would not
have confided such things.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the
Embassy in Moscow to come to this country? Do you know where he got the
money to repay that amount?
Mrs. OSWALD. He worked and we paid out the debt. For six or seven
months we were paying off this debt.
Mr. RANKIN. Some of the payments were rather large during that period.
Do you remember that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. And no one will believe it--it may appear strange.
But we lived very modestly. Perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how
we existed.