_Q._ Where did you drive him to?
_A._ I drove him to Dartford.
_Q._ How was he dressed?
_A._ He appeared to have a great coat on.
_Q._ What house at Dartford did you drive to?
_A._ The Granby.
_Q._ What kind of a coat had he on?
_A._ A grey mixture coat it appeared to be.
_Q._ Did you see any other part of his dress?
_A._ Yes, a red coat, like an aid de camp's, it appeared to be.
_Q._ Describe the coat, was it adorned with any thing?
_A._ He had a star very full indeed.
_Q._ Did you see any thing else?
_A._ There was something about his neck hanging.
_Q._ What had he upon his head?
_A._ He had a cap with a bit of white ribband run through the cap.
_Lord Ellenborough._ How was that ribband, in the shape of a cockade?
_A._ No it was not.
_Mr. Adolphus._ What sort of a cap was it?
_A._ A cap such as officers wear, with a gold lace band round it.
_Q._ Was it day-light when you left him at Dartford?
_A._ Yes; it was about ten minutes before seven when we came to Dartford
with him.
_Q._ Was it then day-light?
_A._ Yes it was day-light about two miles before we came to Dartford.
_Q._ Did you see the person sufficiently to think you should know him
again?
_A._ I do not know that I should.
_Q._ What did he give you at parting?
_A._ He gave us two Napoleons, and paid me for the Dartford horses and
for our horses too; he paid me one £5. note and a shilling for the
Dartford horses, and the Rochester horses too, and the turnpikes.
_Q._ He gave you and the other lad a Napoleon a-piece?
_A._ Yes he did.
_Q._ Who took him up at Dartford?
_A._ Thomas Shilling and Charles Ward.
_Cross Examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ What was the color of his cap?
_A._ I did not take notice of it.
_Q._ There was a white ribband stuck through it?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You took so much notice of it you said it was like an officer's
cap?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How do you describe an officer's cap, are there not different sorts
of officers caps?
_A._ I have seen what they wear when they are not in their regimentals,
those they wear in a morning, this was such a cap as they generally wear
in a morning, not what they wear with their regimentals in the day-time.
_Q._ It slouched down I suppose?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ There is a something comes down to shade the eyes?
_A._ Not on that.
_Q._ How does it slouch then?
_A._ A kind of a turn down, a little way turned down.
_Q._ What was a little way turned down?
_A._ The cap.
_Q._ What part of the cap, in the front, or where?
_A._ In the front.
_Q._ Did you observe what color it was?
_A._ No I did not.
_Q._ Whether it was a dark brown?
_A._ I did not take any notice of the color.
_William Tozer sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._
_Q._ You are an innkeeper at Dartford?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What is your sign?
_A._ The Crown and Anchor.
_Q._ Do you remember on any particular day James Overy bringing a fare
to any other house in your town?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What day was it?
_A._ About the 21st of February.
_Q._ What day in the week?
_A._ Monday morning.
_Q._ What sort of person was it you took notice of?
_A._ The person that I took notice of was sitting in the chaise.
_Q._ Did you speak to him?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ What passed between you?
_A._ I was informed----
_Q._ Tell us what you told him?
_A._ In the first place, I made my obedience to the gentleman in the
chaise, hoping that he had brought us some good news.
_Q._ You said so?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What did the gentleman say?
_A._ He said he had, and that it was all over; that the Allies had
actually entered Paris; that Bonaparte was dead, destroyed by the
Cossacks, and literally torn in pieces, and that we might expect a
speedy peace.
_Q._ Did he tell you any thing more?
_A._ No; during the conversation I saw him give James Overy two gold
pieces, which afterwards proved to be French pieces, I had them in my
hand.
_Q._ Do you know the name of them?
_A._ I cannot say that I do; there was ten francs or something on them.
_Q._ Did you see enough of the person with whom you conversed in the
chaise to think that you should know him again?
_A._ I am positive I should.
_Q._ Look round and see whether you see him here?
_The Witness looked round._
_A._ I cannot see him; he is not round here; I cannot say that I am
positive.
_Q._ You do not see him?
_A._ No I cannot say that I do.
_Q._ Look from here to the end of the row?
_A._ No I cannot say that I am positive.
_Q._ Do you know the boys who drove the Baron away?
_A._ Yes, Shilling and ----.
_Mr. Gurney._ Before Shilling comes in, and when what I say is not
heard by him, I must say that the person to be identified should hold
his head so as to be seen.
_Mr. Park._ And so he did. I desired Mr. De Berenger to hold his head
gently up, and he did it immediately.
_Lord Ellenborough._ The questions might go much nearer; the witnesses
might be asked if that be the person: it is done always at the Old
Bailey in cases of life and death, where the prisoner stands in a
conspicuous situation--it is less strong in that case; but to be sure
when it is proved in the way it has been, it can be of very little
consequence.
_Thomas Shilling sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._
_Q._ You are a chaise-driver at Dartford?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you remember on a particular day taking up a gentleman who came
in a chaise and four to Dartford?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What day was that?
_A._ I do not rightly know the day, but I believe it was on the 21st of
February.
_Q._ What day of the week?
_A._ On a Monday.
_Q._ Had you a pair of horses?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Upon your ride to London, did the gentleman say any thing to you?
_A._ Yes, he discoursed with me a good deal.
_Q._ Who first spoke to him in your hearing?
_A._ The first man that spoke to him in my hearing that I took any
notice of, was the waiter.
_Q._ The waiter at your inn at Dartford?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What was the sign of your house?
_A._ The Granby at Dartford.
_Q._ What passed between him and the waiter?
_A._ The waiter asked him whether he had brought any good news; the
gentleman said, yes, it was all over; Bonaparte was dead; he said he was
torn in a thousand pieces; and the Cossacks fought for a share of him
all the same as if they had been fighting for sharing out gold, and the
Allies were in Paris; then we were ordered to go on.
_Q._ How far had you gone before this gentleman spoke to you?
_A._ To Bexley Heath, about two miles and a half.
_Q._ Had he before that said any thing to you about driving?
_A._ Not that I heard.
_Q._ When he came to Bexley Heath what did he say to you?
_A._ He told me not to hurry my horses, for his business was not so
particular now, since the telegraph could not work he thought.
_Q._ Were you in sight of a telegraph then?
_A._ No.
_Q._ What sort of a morning was it?
_A._ Rather a thick morning; very frosty.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did it appear to you to be so thick a morning that
the telegraphs could not work?
_A._ It did.
_Mr. Adolphus._ What did you say to him?
_A._ I told him I thought the telegraphs could not work, for I knew
almost every telegraph between Deal and London. He then said, Post-boy,
don't take any notice of the news as you go along; I told him I would
not unless he wished; he said I might tell any of my friends as I
returned, for he dar'st to say they would be glad to hear it. He then
said that he had sent a letter to the Port-Admiral at Deal, for he was
ordered to do so, or he was obliged to do so, I will not be certain
which.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You are sure he said so?
_A._ I am sure he said so. He said that he had to walk two miles after
he came ashore before he got to the Ship at Dover. He said the Frenchmen
were afraid of coming so near to Dover, for fear of being stopped, the
Frenchmen that brought him; then we drove on till we came to Shooter's
Hill.
_Mr. Adolphus._ Did he tell you why he had sent to the Port-Admiral at
Deal?
_A._ To have the telegraphs worked, that he said was the reason.
_Q._ Did any thing further pass between you at the time?
_A._ Not any thing that I recollect.
_Q._ Had you any subsequent conversation at any other part of the stage?
_A._ Not till I got to Shooter's Hill; when I came there I alighted from
my horse, and so did my fellow-servant; the gentleman then looked out of
the window, and gave us part of a bottle of wine; he said we might drink
that, because he was afraid the bottle should break, and some cakes with
it.
_Q._ What sort of cakes?
_A._ Little round cakes; I chucked the bottle away, and handed the glass
again into the chaise; he told me I might keep it, that I might have it.
He then said, "Post-boy, you have had a great deal of snow here, I
understand?" I said, "Yes, Sir, we have." He then said, "Here is a
delightful morning, post-boy; I have not seen old England a long while
before." Then he asked me, "which was the first hackney coach stand?" I
told him, at the Bricklayer's Arms, was the first.
_Q._ Did he say why he asked that question?
_A._ Not a word; he said that would not do, for that was too public; he
was afraid some body would cast some reflections, and he should not
like that. I told him, I did not think any body would do that, that they
would be so glad to hear of the news. Then he asked me, if there was not
a hackney coach stand in Lambeth Road? I told him yes. Then he said,
"Drive me there, post-boy, for your chaise will go faster than a hackney
coach will, and so you may drive me there." I drove him to the Lambeth
Road, and when I came there, there was no coach on the stand.
_Q._ Where about is the Lambeth Road?
_A._ I went from the Dog and Duck by the Asylum; this coach-stand was at
the Three Stags, there was no hackney coach there. I ordered my
fellow-servant to stop, and I looked round and told the gentleman there
was no hackney coach there; but that there was a coach-stand at the
Marsh Gate, and if he liked to get in there, I dared to say nobody would
take any notice of him--I drove him up along side of a coach.
_Q._ Did he do any thing upon that?
_A._ I think he pulled up the side-blind as I came round the corner.
_Q._ Was the side-blind up?
_A._ Yes, it was up when I came there; I saw it up, but I did not see
when he pulled it up.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Having been down before, it was up when you got
there?
_A._ Yes, when I got there I pulled up alongside of a hackney coach.
_Mr. Adolphus._ How many hackney coaches were there?
_A._ Only one; I called the coachman, and the waterman opened the coach
door, and I opened the chaise door.
_Q._ Did the gentleman go into the coach?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Q._ How?
_A._ He stepped off my step on to that, for he stepped on the body of
the coach, or on the step of the coach; I cannot say he never stepped on
the ground, the coach and the chaise were too nigh together.
_Q._ Did he make you any present for your trouble?
_A._ He then held his hand down, and gave me two Napoleons; I have them
here now; he did not say one was for my fellow-servant and the other for
myself, but I supposed it was so (the witness produced the Napoleons.)
_Q._ Did you hear him tell the coachman where to drive to?
_A._ I did not.
_Q._ Do you know the name of the coachman or the waterman?
_A._ Yes, I do.
_Q._ What is the name of the coachman?
_A._ Crane.
_Q._ Do you know the waterman's name?
_A._ I am not rightly sure; I think they call him Bob. I know his person
very well.
_Q._ How was this gentleman dressed, that you drove to town?
_A._ He was dressed with a dark fur cap--a round cap, and with white
lace, of some sort, round it; whether it was gold or silver, I cannot
say; he had a red coat on underneath his outer coat.
_Q._ What sort of a coat was his outer coat?
_A._ I think it was a dark coat, a kind of brown coat--but I will not
swear to that.
_Q._ You saw a red coat underneath it?
_A._ Yes, I saw a red coat down as far as the waist; I did not see the
skirts of it.
_Q._ Did you make any particular observation upon the red coat?
_A._ No, I think it was turned up with yellow; but I should not like to
swear that.
_Q._ Had it any thing upon it?
_A._ It had a star of some sort upon it, but I was not close enough to
see that, and cannot swear to what it was.
_Q._ Was that all that you observed of his dress?
_A._ No, not quite all, I think; I think upon the outer coat there was
fur, a kind of white fur, the same as off a rabbit's skin.
_Q._ But that you do not recollect with certainty?
_A._ No, I should not like to swear to that.
_Q._ As you conversed so much with that gentleman, do you think you
should know him again?
_A._ I should know him in a moment.
_Q._ Have you seen him since you have been in Court?
_A._ Yes, that is the gentleman (_pointing to De Berenger_.)
_Q._ Have you any doubt that is the person?
_A._ Not at all.
_Q._ Since the day you drove him, have you seen him before to-day?
_A._ I have.
_Q._ How often?
_A._ Only once.
_Q._ Where was that?
_A._ In King-street, Westminster, in a room there.
_Q._ Did you equally well know him then?
_A._ I did the moment I saw him.
_Q._ Had you ever the least doubt about him?
_A._ Never the least in the world; I knew him as soon as I saw him.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ Have you not been told this morning in what part of the Court he
sat?
_A._ No, I never enquired about it; I looked round when I came in and
found him out in a moment; I dare say every gentleman in the Court saw
me.
_Q._ Had you never seen him before this time you speak of in February?
_A._ I have seen him since, I never saw him before February, to my
knowledge.
_Q._ When was it that you heard of the reward which was offered by the
Stock Exchange?
_A._ I heard of it the day it was printed.
_Q._ How long after this transaction happened?
_A._ I think two or three days afterwards.
_Q._ Do you remember the Club at Dartford, called the Hat Club?
_A._ Yes, perfectly well; I was there.
_Q._ Do you remember the conversation there, whether Crane or you should
get the reward?
_A._ Yes, I remember being asked, whether I thought I should get the
reward, and I said I thought not.
_Q._ You produced your purse, with what you had got?
_A._ Yes, I produced my purse, and rapped it on the table in this way,
but that was money I had laid out before; I had received five pounds
from the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange towards my expences.
_Q._ What might be your observation, when you rapped it upon the table?
_A._ To let them know that I had it.
_Q._ Did you say any thing about the yellow boys?
_A._ Yes, those were the gold Napoleons.
_Q._ Did you not say that the gentleman applauded you, and said you were
a clever fellow?
_A._ No, I did not, I would have said very wrong if I had, I am sure.
_Q._ I think they would have done you no more than justice. Did you not
on that occasion say, you would swear for that side that paid you best?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Q._ On that occasion, nor any other?
_A._ No, I never did, you may depend upon it.
_Q._ Nor any thing to that effect?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Q._ Who were present at this time?
_A._ Upon my word I do not know; several members round about.
_Q._ Several neighbours?
_A._ Yes, they were members.
_Q._ Was a person of the name of Man there?
_A._ I do not know him.
_Q._ Or Wood?
_A._ I do not know such a person; there were not above a dozen of them
there; but I am not there often myself.
_Q._ How many members of the club are there?
_A._ I do not know, indeed; the hat maker pays my money for me; being
very much out, I am not there one time in ten.
_Q._ When you are there, you do not know who are present?
_A._ No, I do not exactly.
_Lord Ellenborough._ What is this Hat Club?
_A._ We pay a shilling a week, and have a pint of beer; I have not been
there these several weeks.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You get part of your money back in a hat?
_A._ We pay twenty-four shillings, and then have a hat for it.
_Mr. Richardson._ You have described this gentleman's person before
to-day?
_A._ Yes, I have.
_Q._ You have been examined upon several occasions before this?
_A._ I have been examined at the Stock Exchange, and before the Grand
Jury, no where else.
_Q._ Did not you describe the person as one that had a great red nose,
and a blotched face?
_A._ A red nose I said, and his face was very red that morning, for it
was very frosty. I said he was pitted with the small-pox.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Red or not sure you are, of the identity of the
face?
_A._ Yes, I am sure of it.
_Mr. Richardson._ It was you that told him of the stand of coaches in
the Lambeth Road?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That is before you come to the Marsh Gate?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That is not far from the Asylum, is it?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You went there for the purpose of getting a coach in the first
instance?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And then you told him he might perhaps get one at the Marsh Gate?
_A._ Yes.
_William Bartholemew was called into Court._
_Q._ (_to Shilling_) Is that the waterman?
_A._ That is the waterman.
_William Bartholemew sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._
_Q._ Are you a waterman attending a stand of coaches?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Where?
_A._ At the Marsh Gate.
_Q._ Do you know Shilling, the last witness?
_A._ Yes, by seeing him come up with post chaises from Dartford.
_Q._ He is a Dartford boy?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you remember at any time in February, his coming with a chaise
with a gentleman in it?
_A._ Yes, the 21st of February.
_Q._ What day in the week was it?
_A._ On a Monday.
_Q._ With how many horses?
_A._ Four horses.
_Q._ At what time in the morning?
_A._ Between nine and half past nine in the morning.
_Q._ Was there a coach on the stand?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Any more than one?
_A._ No more than one.
_Q._ Who drove that coach?
_A._ One Crane.
_Q._ Did you see the gentleman get into it?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Q._ How did he go in?
_A._ He stepped out of one into the other?
_Q._ Did you open the door and let down the step for him?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How was that gentleman dressed?
_A._ He had got a kind of brown cap on, and a dark drab military sort of
coat.
_Q._ Was there any thing round the cap?
_A._ There was a sort of band or something round the cap.
_Q._ What had he under his military great coat?
_A._ A scarlet coat.
_Q._ Did you see any thing on the scarlet coat?
_A._ I only took notice of the lace upon it.
_Q._ Where did that gentleman order the coach to drive to?
_A._ Up to Grosvenor Square.
_Q._ To what street?
_A._ I do not recollect whether he told me any street, only Grosvenor
Square.
_Q._ Do you think you should know that gentleman again?
_A._ I do not know; dress makes such an alteration.
_Q._ Look round, and see whether you can see any one.
_A._ I do not see that I can recollect him, only seeing him that half
minute.
_Q._ Look at that gentleman who is stooping down to write, (_De
Berenger_,) and see whether you think that is like him?
_A._ Yes, I do upon my word, but I only saw him for about half a minute.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ You, being a waterman, take that particular notice of every body
that gets into a hackney coach, that you are quite sure having seen him
step from the chaise into the coach, that he is the man?
_A._ I said at first, that the dress made such an alteration that I
should think I should hardly know him.
_Q._ If I were to get into your coach with this dress on, and afterwards
with my ordinary dress, you would hardly know me again?
_A._ No, I should think not.
_Richard Barwick sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._
_Q._ What are you?
_A._ I am clerk to Messrs. Paxtons and Company.
_Q._ Where is their house of business?
_A._ In Pall Mall.
_Q._ They are Bankers?
_A._ Yes, they are.
_Q._ Do you remember a particular circumstance in passing near the Marsh
Gate any morning?
_A._ Yes, I do.
_Q._ On what day?
_A._ Monday Morning the 21st February.
_Q._ What did you observe in passing?
_A._ I observed a post chaise with four horses, it had galloped at a
very great rate, the horses were exceedingly hot, and the man was
getting into a hackney coach that the people there told me had come out
of that chaise.
_Q._ Did you hear that person who got into the coach say anything?
_A._ No, I had no conversation with any body.
_Q._ Did you follow that coach?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ How far?
_A._ I saw it as far as the Little Theatre, in the Haymarket.
_Q._ Why did you follow that hackney coach.
_A._ Because I wanted to know what the news was.
_Lord Ellenborough._ How came you to know any thing about the news?
_A._ I was told, it was a General Officer arrived with news, and I
wanted to know what it was.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You were told it was an Officer arrived with news?
_A._ Yes, I was.
_Mr. Adolphus._ Then you went to your own business, having followed this
coach to the Haymarket?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did he pass by any of the public offices?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Q._ Did he stop at any of them?
_A._ No.
_Q._ He went straight to the Haymarket?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Q._ Was that the reason why you desisted from following?
_A._ It was nine o'clock, and I must be at the office by that hour, and
therefore I did not go on.
_Q._ Did you see enough of that person to know him again?
_A._ I believe, I did.
_Q._ Look at him, and see whether you know his person again?
(_The witness looked round._)
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you see his body?
_A._ I saw his face in the coach, he had a cap on such as the German
Cavalry wear, after an evening parade, with a gold band upon it.
_Mr. Adolphus._ Have you seen that person in court?
_Lord Ellenborough._ There is no objection to his looking at the
Defendant, and seeing whether he is the person.
(_The witness looked at the Defendant De Berenger._)
_A._ I really do not know that I do see him exactly.
_Mr. Park._ This is the gentleman said to be the man.
_Lord Ellenborough._ If you do not recollect the gentleman's person, say
so.
_Mr. Park._ Is the result of your looking that you do not believe this
to be the man?
_A._ He is something like him.
_Q._ One man is something like another, he goes upon two legs, and has
two hands, and so on.
_A._ It is like him certainly.
_William Crane sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._
_Q._ Do you drive a hackney coach?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What number.
_A._ 890.
_Q._ On a Monday morning in February do you remember taking up a fare at
the Marsh Gate?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What day of the month was it?
_A._ The 21st of February.
_Q._ Where did the fare come from?
_A._ From Dartford.
_Q._ Out of what?
_A._ A post chaise and four--a Dartford chaise.
_Q._ Where were you directed to drive to?
_A._ To Grosvenor Square.
_Q._ Where to there?
_A._ He did not say where in Grosvenor Square.
_Q._ Where did you set him down?
_A._ I drove him into Grosvenor Square, and then the gentleman put down
the front glass and told me to drive to No. 13, Green Street.
_Q._ Did the gentleman get out there?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you hear whom he asked for?
_A._ He asked for Colonel or Captain somebody, I did not hear the name,
and they said he was gone to breakfast in Cumberland Street.
_Q._ What did the gentleman say then?
_A._ The gentleman asked if he could write a note to him.
_Q._ Did he go in?
_A._ Yes, he went into the parlour.
_Q._ Were you discharged then?
_A._ Yes, the gentleman gave me four shillings before he went in, and I
said, I hoped he would give me another shilling: he took out a bit of a
portmanteau that he had, and a sword, and went in, and came out into the
passage and gave me another shilling.
_Q._ What sort of a portmanteau was it?
_A._ A small leather one, big enough to wrap a coat up in.
_Q._ What sort of leather?
_A._ I think black leather, as well as I can recollect.
_Q._ Have you seen that person since that you drove that morning?
_A._ Yes, I saw him in King Street, Westminster.
_Q._ At the messenger's house?
_A._ At Mr. Wood's house.
_Q._ Do you see him in court?
_A._ I think this is the gentleman, here, (_pointing to De Berenger_.)
_Q._ Were you of the same opinion when you saw him at Mr. Wood's?
_A._ When I came down stairs he looked very hard at me.
_Q._ Did you know him then?
_A._ Yes, it was something of the same appearance, but he had altered
himself very much by his dress.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ You went to Wood's for the purpose of seeing him?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Q._ Wood is a messenger of the Alien Office?
_A._ He lives in King Street.
_Q._ He was pointed out there as being the person in custody?
_A._ No, I walked down stairs, and met the gentleman coming up stairs.
_Q._ You thought you saw a resemblance?
_A._ Yes, I thought he was something like the same gentleman that I had
carried.
_Q._ You do not pretend to be able to recollect every person you carry
in your hackney coach every day?
_A._ No, but this gentleman that I took from a post chaise and four,
when he got out at Green Street I saw that he had a red coat underneath
his great coat.
_Q._ You did not open your coach to him, the waterman did that?
_A._ Yes, the post boy ordered me to get on the box.
_Lord Ellenborough._ When he got out you opened the door to him I
suppose?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Mr. Richardson._ Did you open the door, or the footman at the house?
_A._ I opened the door.
_Q._ And he paid you and passed into the house?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Q._ What was the colour of his great coat?
_A._ A brown grey great coat, with a brown cape with lace to it.
_Q._ You have before described the great coat as a brown great coat,
have not you?
_A._ A kind of a brown grey.
_Q._ Did not you describe it before as a kind of a brown coat?
_A._ No.
_Mr. Gurney._ I will now prove the finding the clothes in the river, and
then prove the purchase of them.
_George Odell sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ Are you a waterman?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you remember in the month of February last, fishing up any
bundle in the river?
_A._ In the month of March.
_Q._ Where did you fish it up?
_A._ Above the Old Swan Stairs, off against the Iron Wharfs.
_Q._ Were you dredging for any thing?
_A._ I was dredging for coals with a drag.
_Q._ What kind of a bundle did you find?
_A._ I picked up a bundle, tied up with a piece of chimney line, or
window line in the cover of a calico chair bottom.
_Q._ What was in it?
_A._ I think there were two sleeves of a coat, and then a coat cut to
pieces, and embroidery, and a star, and a silver coat of arms, with two
figures upon it.
_Q._ How was it sunk?
_A._ With three pieces of lead, three screws, and some marks for
letters.
_Q._ With some metal?
_A._ Yes, and some bits of coal.
_Q._ Did you give that which you found to Mr. Wade, the Secretary of the
Stock Exchange?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How soon after you found it did you give it to him?
_A._ I picked it up on the Wednesday, and I carried it there on the
Saturday.
_Mr. Park._ Can you give us the day of the month when you picked this
up?
_A._ The 24th of March.
_Mr. Gurney._ Did you find it on the 24th of March, or give it to Mr.
Wade on that day?
_A._ I picked it up on that day, about half after eleven o'clock in the
day; I can bring plenty of witnesses to my picking it up.
_Q._ Are these the sort of things that you picked up? (_shewing a bundle
of clothes with star, &c. to the witness._)
_A._ These are the sort of things, but the star was not in that state it
is now; the star was in half, and one of the birds was off.
_Mr. Gurney._ This, my Lord, is an order of masonry, and this I
understand a Russian order of knighthood, the order of St. Ann.
_Mr. Francis Baily sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ You are of the Stock Exchange?
_A._ Yes, I am.
_Q._ Were you present with Mr. Wade, when he received the parcel from
Odell?
_A._ I was,--from the last witness in the box.
_Q._ Was it delivered over to Mr. Lavie?
_A._ I believe it was, it lay upon the table some time.
_Q._ Did you examine it?
_A._ I did, very minutely.
_Q._ Are the things contained in that parcel?
_A._ I believe them to be, they appear to be the same.
_Mr. Gurney (to Mr. Lavie)._ Did you receive that from Mr. Wade?
_Mr. Lavie._ I did, I took it from the Stock Exchange room.
_Q._ Mr. Wade and Mr. Baily were present?
_Mr. Lavie._ Yes, they were.
_Mr. Robert Watson Wade sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ You are the Secretary at the Stock Exchange?
_A._ I am.
_Q._ Did you, in company with Mr. Baily and other gentlemen, receive
from Odell the bundle said to be found in the River?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Was it given to Mr. Lavie?
_A._ It was.
_Q._ The star we understand was then in two pieces?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was it afterwards sewn together?
_A._ It was, for the purpose of being exhibited.
_Simeon Kensington Solomon sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ I believe you are a military accoutrement maker?
_A._ Yes, I am.
_Q._ Have you a shop at Charing-Cross, and another at New-Street Covent
Garden?
_A._ We have.
_Q._ On the Saturday the 19th of February do you remember any person
making a purchase of any military dress at your house?
_A._ Yes, I do.
_Q._ What dress was purchased of you?
_A._ A military great coat and foraging cap.
_Q._ What is it made of?
_A._ Dark fur.
_Q._ Was any thing on it?
_A._ It had a pale gold band.
_Q._ Have you since had a cap and a coat made exactly resembling them?
_A._ I have.
_Q._ Are these the cap and the coat you have had so made? (_shewing them
to the witness._)
_A._ They are.
_Q._ Do they exactly resemble the cap and the coat you sold?
_A._ As nearly as I could possibly recollect.
_Q._ What else did the person purchase?
_A._ They purchased at our house in New Street----
_Q._ You suppose some order had been given in New-Street, did any thing
come from New-Street as having been ordered there?
_A._ Yes there did.
_Q._ You were at Charing Cross?
_A._ I was.
_Q._ Did any person come to your shop at Charing-Cross and take away
that which had been sent from New-Street which you furnished?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Q._ Was there any other coat purchased besides that great coat?
_A._ There was a military regimental coat, a staff coat was brought from
New-Street.
_Q._ Was that scarlet?
_A._ Yes, fitted for a staff officer the uniform of an Aid de Camp.
_Q._ With this sort of gold lace upon it?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Have you examined these fragments?
_A._ Yes, I have.
_Q._ Were there any ornaments besides?
_A._ There was a star and a badge.
_Q._ Look at that star and badge and tell me whether you believe them to
be the same?
_A._ Yes, I do believe them to be the same.
_Q._ Why do you believe them to be the same?
_A._ The star I certainly believe to be the same, because we had the
very fellow star.
_Q._ Except these two, did you ever see any star like them?
_A._ I do not know that ever I did.
_Q._ Do you believe that badge to be the same?
_A._ The badge I did not notice much.
_Q._ You sold a badge?
_A._ The badge came from our house in New-Street.
_Q._ Had you any conversation with the person?
_A._ Yes I had.
_Q._ You have examined these fragments?
_A._ I have.
_Q._ Do you believe them to be the fragments of the dress you furnished,
or of such a dress?
_A._ They appear to be those materials, as far as I can judge in that
state.
_Q._ And the same kind of lace?
_A._ The same description of embroidery.
_Q._ Speaking of a thing so cut to pieces, does it appear to you to
consist of the remnants of the dress you furnished?
_A._ Yes, except that the scarlet is very much discoloured by being
under water, it appears the same description of coat.
_Q._ Had you any conversation with the person as to the use of these
things?
_A._ I had very little conversation as to the sale of the uniform, for
they were already purchased before I saw him, with respect to the great
coat I sold that and also the cap.
_Q._ Did he mention for what purpose they were wanted?
_A._ He observed that they were wanted for a person who was to perform
the character of a foreign officer, to be sent into the country that
evening.
_Q._ Did he take them away with him?
_A._ Yes he did.
_Q._ Did you offer to lend them to him?
_A._ Where he purchased the uniform----
_Q._ If that was not in your presence you will not state it--did he take
them away with him?
_A._ Yes he took them away in a coach.
_Q._ Had he any portmanteau with him?
_A._ He had a small portmanteau.
_Q._ Did he beat you down in the prices?
_A._ No, he did not.
_Q._ Did he say any thing about money?
_A._ No, he made no observations, he merely paid for them.
_Q._ You were conversing with that person for some time?
_A._ For a short time.
_Q._ Have you since seen him again--have you seen any person that you
believed to be the same?
_A._ I was introduced to a person----
_Q._ Where was that?
_A._ At the Parliament-street Coffee House.
_Q._ Do you believe that person you saw at the Parliament-street Coffee
House to be the person who so made the purchase?
_A._ That I cannot undertake to say.
_Q._ What do you believe?
_A._ In point of appearance he resembles him, except that the person
whom I served had whiskers.
_Q._ I suppose the person you saw in Parliament street had not?
_A._ He had not.
_Q._ Look at him now and tell me whether you do or do not believe him to
be the person? (_The witness looked at the Defendant De Berenger._)
_A._ This is the person I was introduced to at the Coffee-house.
_Q._ Upon the oath you have taken, what is your belief respecting him?
_A._ I really cannot undertake to swear that he is the person?
_Q._ What do you believe?
_A._ The Gentleman that represented himself to be Mr. Wilson was dressed
in a different manner, he had black whiskers, and from that circumstance
I could not possibly undertake to swear it was the same person.
_Q._ What is your belief?
_Mr. Park._ That belief may be founded on different facts?
_Lord Ellenborough._ To those facts you will examine, Mr. Gurney is now
examining, there is no objection to the question.
_Mr. Gurney._ What is your belief?
_A._ Upon my word it is impossible for me to say.
_Q._ Do you mean to say that you have no belief upon the matter?
_A._ I mean to say I cannot undertake to swear it is the person.
_Q._ What is your belief?
_A._ I believe it resembles the person, except that the person I served
had whiskers.
_Q._ Making allowance for whiskers which may be taken off in a minute,
what is your belief upon the subject?
_A._ Upon my word it is impossible for me to say.
_Q._ You can certainly say what is your belief?
_Lord Ellenborough._ You are not asked as to whether you are certain,
but to your belief.
_A._ If I were to say I believe it is the person I might say wrong, if I
were to say I believe it is not the person I might say otherwise, it may
be the person but I cannot undertake to say I believe it is.
_Mrs. Abigail Davidson sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ In the month of February last did you reside in the Asylum
Buildings?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That is near to the Asylum?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Is the house within the rules of the King's Bench?
_A._ Yes it is.
_Q._ Did Mr. De Berenger lodge with you?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Do you remember on what day he finally quitted your house?
_A._ On the 27th of February.
_Q._ What day of the week was that?
_A._ Sunday.
_Q._ Do you remember where he was the Sunday before that?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Did you see him on the morning of that Sunday?
_A._ No, on Sunday the 20th you mean, I did not.
_Q._ Did he sleep at home that night?
_A._ I cannot say.
_Q._ Did you see him that night at all?
_A._ We never attended to the door.
_Q._ Did you usually hear Mr. De Berenger in the morning?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Much or little did you hear him?
_A._ We heard him very frequently.
_Q._ Did you on the morning of Monday the 21st hear him as usual?
_A._ No.
_Q._ What did you use to hear of him on the mornings on which you did
hear him?
_A._ We heard the bell ring for the servant.
_Q._ Once or more than once?
_A._ More than once?
_Q._ What rooms did he occupy?
_A._ The whole of the upper part of the house.
_Q._ What part did you occupy?
_A._ The parlours.
_Q._ How many rooms up stairs were there?
_A._ Four.
_Q._ And you and your husband occupied the two parlours?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ On other mornings when you heard him besides ringing the bell did
you hear any thing else respecting him?
_A._ Occasionally Mr. De Berenger would play on the violin or the
trumpet.
_Q._ Did you hear him walk about?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did Mr. De Berenger then wear whiskers or no whiskers?
_A._ Whiskers.
_Q._ Was there any morning on which you were at home that you did not
hear his bell and his walking about?
_A._ No, I generally heard his bell.
_Q._ Did you see him come home on the Monday?
_A._ No.
_Q._ How early on that evening did you see him?
_A._ In the evening about a quarter or half past five.
_Q._ Had you heard him in the house before that time?
_A._ I heard him in the afternoon.
_Q._ You say he quitted your house on the Sunday after?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you remember any Gentleman calling there the day before he
quitted with a letter?
_A._ On the Saturday night--
_Q._ He called with a letter?
_A._ Yes he did.
_Q._ Have you since seen that Gentleman again?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Where did you see him?
_A._ I saw him at the Temple?
_Q._ Was it at the Crown Office?
_A._ I do not know what office it was.
_Q._ Was Mr. Lavie present at the time you saw him?
_A._ Yes he was.
_Q._ Did you point him out to Mr. Lavie.
_A._ I cannot say that I should positively know the gentleman.
_Q._ Do you believe him to be the same?
_A._ Yes, I think it was.
_Q._ The same you had seen on the Saturday deliver that letter?
_A._ Yes, I think so.
_Q._ Had Mr. De Berenger two servants of the name of Smith, William
Smith and his wife?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ When he dined at home did his servants attend him?
_A._ Always.
_Q._ On the Sunday before he finally went away, Sunday the 20th, did he
dine at home?
_A._ I cannot answer that.
_Q._ What was his usual dinner hour?
_A._ About four o'clock.
_Q._ Where were his servants at four o'clock on that day? At home or
not?
_A._ I think they went out early on that day.
_Q._ What do you mean by early?
_A._ I mean two or half past two o'clock.
_Q._ Do you remember any thing about your key, respecting either of
them, whether either of them had your key?
_A._ There was a private place where the key always hung for the
accommodation of Mr. De Berenger and us.
_Q._ Where was the key put that night?
_A._ The key was always under the care of Mr. Smith.
_Q._ You did not see where he put it that night, did you?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ What Sunday was it that these servants went out to dinner at two or
half past two?
_A._ On Sunday the 20th.
_Q._ You were preparing to go to chapel on that Sunday at eleven
o'clock, and Mr. De Berenger went out at the time.
_A._ Mr. Davidson was going out, I did not go out.
_Q._ You were not well?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Mr. Davidson was going out.
_A._ Yes, but I did not see Mr. De Berenger.
_Q._ Did you hear your husband make an observation at the time?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Q._ You did not yourself attend to the door?
_A._ No.
_Q._ This Gentleman had been your lodger for some years, had he not?
_A._ Nine months?
_Q._ You do not mean to represent, that he slept from his own bed on
that Sunday, the 20th?
_A._ I cannot say that he did, or that he did not.
_Q._ You do not make his bed or go into his room?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Do you sleep in the parlour?
_A._ Yes, we have the two parlours.
_Q._ What is your general hour of rising in the morning?
_A._ Between seven and eight.
_Q._ Mr. De Berenger's time of trumpeting is not so early as that I
suppose?
_A._ I have heard him at nine o'clock.
_Q._ He did not alarm the neighbourhood at seven o'clock?
_A._ No, I have heard him by eight or nine.
_Q._ Not so soon as that I should think in the month of February, not
being very warm weather at that time?
_A._ I cannot speak to the time.
_Q._ If a person went out at eight o'clock that morning, you had no
particular reason to know of it?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You had no call to look after him on the Sunday, or Monday, or
Tuesday morning?
_A._ No.
_Q._ And whether he slept at home or did not, you cannot take upon
yourself to say?
_A._ No.
_Re-examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ My learned Friend has asked you as to your husband observing upon
Mr. De Berenger's going out on the Sunday morning: in what words did
your husband make the remark as to Mr. De Berenger's going out?
_A._ He called out, our lodger is gone out with a new great coat on.
_Mr. Germain Lavie again called._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ Who was the Gentleman that Mrs. Davidson pointed out to you?
_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I object to that, that is a leading question.
_Mr. Gurney_. I beg pardon.--Did the last witness point out any person
to you at the Crown-Office, at the time of striking the Jury?
_A._ Before she came into the Crown-Office she saw Mr. Cochrane
Johnstone getting out of a Hackney coach at the Crown-Office door--she
then told me----
_Q._ Did she point out any person to you as having seen him before?
_A._ No, she did not then.
_Q._ Did she afterwards fix upon any person as having seen him?
_A._ No she did not, unless I can speak to what passed before.
_Q._ Did she mention having seen any person get out of a Hackney Coach?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Who was that person that she observed upon?
_A._ The person she pointed out to me as having seen get out of a
Hackney coach was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone--she staid the whole time of
the striking of the Jury, he struck the Jury himself.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Then the whole of it is, that the person who was
striking the Jury, was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Yes.
_Mr. Gurney. (to Mrs. Davidson)._ Was that person the person that you
believe brought the Letter?
_Q._ I cannot be positive to his person.
_Q._ Do you believe that to be the person?
_A._ I think it was.
_Mrs. Abigail Davidson._
_Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best._
_Q._ How came you to go for the purpose of striking the Jury.
_A._ A person from Mr. Lavie came and fetched me for the purpose.
_Q._ To attend to assist in striking the Jury?
_A._ No, to see Mr. Johnstone.
_Q._ You were told Mr. Johnstone was to be there?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And going there you saw a person taking a part with respect to the
striking of the Jury?
_A._ I saw a Gentleman get out of the coach as I was standing in the
passage, I saw a Gentleman come across, that I thought was the person,
but I could not be positive.
_Q._ Can you take upon yourself to swear now, that was the person?
_A._ No, I would not swear it.
_Re-examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ When you saw the person at the time he left the letter, had you any
reason to know what his name was?
_A._ No, I had never seen the Gentleman before, but in conversing with
Smith, Mr. De Berenger's servant----.
_Q._ Had you any conversation about him with Smith, Mr. Du Bourg's
servant?
_A._ I had.
_Mr. Gurney._ I do not ask you what it was, my learned Friends may if
they please.
_Launcelot Davidson sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ Are you the husband of the last Witness?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Mr. De Berenger we find lodged in your house?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Do you remember on what day he quitted your house?
_A._ The 27th of February I think.
_Q._ What day of the week?
_A._ Sunday.
_Q._ Do you remember seeing him go out on the Sunday before the 20th.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ At what hour of the day?
_A._ Before eleven.
_Q._ Have you any reason to know the time?
_A._ Yes, I had been out before, and I returned home and stood before
the parlour window waiting to hear the Asylum clock strike eleven, to go
to chapel.
_Q._ How was he dressed?
_A._ At that time that I saw him go out, I had seen him ten minutes
before come in.
_Q._ How was he dressed when he came in before?
_A._ He had a plaid cloak on that he had worn nearly all the winter, he
and I came in together, he was just before me.
_Q._ When he went out again, how was he dressed?
_A._ He had just such a coat as this on as to colour, (_the grey coat
before produced_.)
_Q._ Did it appear to be new or old?
_A._ I cannot exactly say, but as he went down the yard, I said to my
wife who was in the back parlour, there goes our lodger, he has a new
great coat on, just before he had his plaid on when I came in.
_Q._ Did he come home again at all during that day?
_A._ Not that I saw.
_Q._ Did you see or hear him at all during that day?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Q._ Did you see or hear him the next morning?
_A._ No, I am not at home--I always go out the early part of the
morning.
_Q._ At what time do you go out?
_A._ About nine.
_Q._ Before nine had you either seen or heard him?
_A._ No, I had not.
_Q._ Do you usually hear him in a morning before that time?
_A._ Yes, I generally used to hear him walking about, or ringing for his
servant, or something or other.
_Q._ On that Monday morning before you went out, did you hear those
things you generally did?
_A._ No, I did not, and we made the observation upon it, and also upon
the servants going out at two o'clock, which was not customary.
_Q._ At what time on the Sunday did they go out?
_A._ I think about two o'clock.
_Q._ At what time did they return?
_A._ That I cannot say.
_Q._ Did they return that evening?
_A._ I dare say they did, but we never opened the door?
_Q._ Were they out or at home at four o'clock?
_A._ That I cannot say, I do not think they were at home.
_Q._ What was Mr. De Berenger's usual dinner hour?
_A._ About four o'clock.
_Q._ Did they attend him at dinner?
_A._ The man servant did.
_Q._ And the woman servant cooked his dinner?
_A._ Yes, she did.
_Q._ Did he dine at home on that Sunday?
_A._ No, he did not.
_Q._ I do not ask you what conversation took place between you and the
Smiths' next day respecting the Sunday night, but did any conversation
take place on that subject?
_A._ Yes, there did.
_Q._ On the Sunday afterwards he left your house?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Did you see him go away on the Sunday after?
_A._ No.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ You had nothing to do with his domestic life, with his dinner, or
letting him into the house, or letting him out of it?
_A._ No.
_Q._ His servants attended to all that?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ He might come in or go out without your observing it?
_A._ Yes, he might, but it is almost impossible I should think, because
he generally gave a very loud rap at the door, and he had very few
visitors.
_Q._ You yourself go out early in the morning upon your own business?
_A._ Yes, about nine o'clock.
_Q._ Do you stay out a considerable part of the day?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What is your business?
_A._ A broker.
_Q._ At that time you acted as a broker?
_A._ I acted as a broker's Clerk at that time.
_Q._ You are out a considerable part of the day, sometimes more,
sometimes less.
_A._ Yes.
_Mr. Gurney._ Now my Lord I am going to what I have stated as the
underplot, respecting M'Rae, Sandom, Lyte, and Holloway.
_Thomas Vinn sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Bolland._
_Q._ In consequence of a note that was left at your house, did you go to
the Carolina Coffee House in February last?
_A._ I did, where I met M'Rae.
_Q._ What day in February was it?
_A._ On the 14th of February the note was dated, and I received it the
15th.
_Q._ On what day did you go to the Carolina Coffee House?
_A._ On the 15th in the morning.
_Q._ Did any body accost you there?
_A._ I met M'Rae, who was at that time in company with an elderly
Gentleman, he desired me to sit down and he would be with me presently.
_Q._ Had you known M'Rae before?
_A._ I had some years.
_Q._ Did he return to you as he said he would?
_A._ He was not out of my sight, he was standing near the door, and in
the course of seven or ten minutes, as far as I can recollect, he came
and joined me.
_Q._ Upon his joining you what passed?
_A._ He told me he had known me a long time, and that he thought he had
now an opportunity of making my fortune; that he knew from the knowledge
I had of languages, particularly that of the French, I should have an
opportunity of both benefiting others and myself.
_Q._ What answer did you make?
_A._ I asked him what the object was, and whether it was to travel
abroad; he told me it was not to travel abroad, but it was probably to
travel at home, and that almost immediately; that it was a scheme that
he had in contemplation, employed by men of affluence and consequence,
and that he thought no man more competent to that than myself.--On my
asking him if there was any thing of moral turpitude in it, he said that
there was none but that it was practised daily by men of the first
consequence, it was nothing more nor less than biting the biters, or in
other words, a Hoax upon the Stock Exchange. I asked him in what way I
could attend to it, or in what way it was to be performed; he told me by
going down to Dartford, Folkestone, or Dover, as I should receive
instructions, and that, that evening, but that it was necessary to have
for himself and me, two dresses appropriated to that of French Officers.
I here stopped him, and asked whether he really meant me to be employed
in this transaction, to which he replied, certainly, and that I should
be in the first place remunerated, and ultimately have a fortune made
me. I replied with indignation, that I would as soon be concerned in a
highway robbery, that I thought he had known me better than to have
suggested to me a plan of the kind, and expressed myself rather beyond
the usual tone of my voice, hurt at it, he endeavoured to hush me by
saying people would overhear us, he endeavoured to hush me by the
ejaculation _ish_ for that we should be overheard there.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did he say you might probably be overheard there?
_A._ Yes, he did, and then he took me out of the Coffee-house and went
up Cornhill where I left him, but recollecting this was only what was
related to me, and that if ever it took place or did not, it was
impossible that what I said could be any proof, I therefore considered
that I had better----
_Mr. Alley._ Give us the facts if you please, and not the reasons?
_Mr. Bolland._ Do not trouble my friend with your reasons as he does not
like them, but tell us what you did?
_A._ I returned and told him if he would go with me to another
Coffee-house, I would introduce him to a person, who though I would not
undertake the business might do it.
_Q._ What was your reason for doing that?
_A._ Only that I might have a witness.
_Mr. Alley._ I object to that reason being stated.
_Lord Ellenborough._ This is only introductory to what he is about to
state. I presume no one can be more interested than I am in his
narration being short?
_A._ I told him I would take him to a Coffee-house where a person was
who might engage in this hoax.
_Lord Ellenborough._ I beg you will not call it by that name--such an
offence as this.
_Mr. Bolland._ Did you take him to the Coffee-house?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What Coffee-house?
_A._ The Jamaica--there was a young man there to whom I was about to
introduce him, but he turned round suddenly and I did not.
_Q._ Did any thing more pass between M'Rae and you?
_A._ No, nothing more.
_Q._ Any thing about French terms?
_A._ I recollect myself--In consequence of M'Rae returning, he asked me
whether I would not give him in writing the terms _Vive le Roi_--_Vive
les Bourbons_;--which in the expectation of his attending to this young
man, (this was in the Jamaica Coffee-house) I gave him.
_Q._ Did you give him any other?
_A._ None other to my knowledge.
_Q._ Was that the letter you received from M'Rae? (_shewing a letter to
the witness._)
_A._ That is it.
_Q._ Is that M'Rae's writing?
_A._ It is.
(_The Letter was read as follows:_)
_February 14, 1814._
Mr. Vinn,
Please to meet me at the Carolina Coffee-house, Birchin-lane,
about eleven to-morrow, upon very particular interesting
business.
Yours, very respectfully,
ALEXANDER M'RAE.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Alley._
_Q._ As I have not the pleasure of knowing you, what is your business?
_A._ I am an accountant.
_Q._ Have you been acquainted for any length of time with Mr. M'Rae?
_A._ I believe five years and a half, or nearly six years.
_Q._ Have you been concerned in any business in the Stock Exchange?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You were not in the habit of buying and selling as a Broker?
_A._ No.
_Q._ It was an odd thing that Mr. M'Rae should resort to you in such a
base transaction, you being in the business of an Accountant?
_A._ I have been in business and have been unfortunate, and since have
been an Accountant.
_Q._ Not to lose your character I take for granted?
_A._ I hope not.
_Q._ There was no other person present to hear this conversation?
_A._ He was talking with a gentleman when I entered.
_Q._ This rests upon your own testimony?
_A._ We afterwards joined a party, but no person heard the conversation
but ourselves, except that any person might hear me when I became
vociferous.
_Q._ You quite met my approbation when you told me that you considered
this as base as if he had asked you to go on the highway--how came you
to propose a friend of yours after that?
_A._ It was merely for the purpose of having a witness to the offer to
me, because if not, and this took place what I had said would have been
of no effect had it been rendered completely abortive by this failing
with me.
_Q._ Then am I to understand you thought it better to let this
wickedness be practised in order that it might afterwards be proved?
_A._ I am sorry I am so misunderstood, I only wished it should not be
promulgated to the world merely on my _ipse dixit_, but on the testimony
of another.
_Q._ You did introduce him to your friend?
_A._ No, I did not, he would not be introduced. I had communicated to my
friend the business in question before he came.
_Q._ How soon did you communicate this to the Stock Exchange?
_A._ I communicated it within ten minutes afterwards on that day.
_Q._ After the thing had been publicly known?
_A._ No, I went immediately on this application being made and
promulgated it to Mr. Rothery, of the Atlas Printing-Office, in
Houndsditch; I afterwards went to a house in Clement's lane, where I
promulgated it to thirteen or fourteen different persons, and I made it
public daily in all the companies I went into.
_Q._ Was that before this happened?
_A._ It was on the 15th I made public, not the name of M'Rae, but that
such a thing had been offered to me, which I refused with indignity.
_Q._ Some of these gentlemen are here as witnesses to-day I suppose?
_A._ I did not think it necessary, but I am perfectly willing that they
should be called, I have seen two of them in Court and probably they may
be so now.
_Lord Ellenborough._ This is merely a meditated something if you think
it worth while to pursue it you may.
_Mr. Alley._ He only says that it rests upon his testimony, that was all
I wanted to know--you gave him two bits of French to assist him however?
_A._ After I had agreed to take him to another friend, in order to get
him to that business, I certainly did mention the name of _Vive le
Roi_--_Vive le Bourbons_.
_Q._ Would not you have thought it quite as honest and as much to your
purpose to have omitted that?
_A._ You will see that that was done for the purpose I have mentioned.
_Mr. Gurney._ Was it done in order to get a conformatory witness?
_A._ It was done with that intent and that only.
_Sarah Alexander sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Bolland._
_Q._ You live at No. 61, Fetter-lane, do you not?
_A._ Yes, I do.
_Q._ How long have you lived there?
_A._ I have lived there ever since last September.
_Q._ Do you know Mr. M'Rae?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did he lodge with you?
_A._ Not with me--he lodged on the same floor that I did.
_Q._ Is he a married or single man?
_A._ A married man; he had his wife with him.
_Q._ Do you recollect any thing passing in February last, with regard to
Mr. M'Rae?
_A._ Yes, on a Saturday night.
_Q._ What Saturday night?
_A._ The 19th of February.
_Q._ Where were you at that time?
_A._ In my own room; he came into my room and brought it and gave it to
his wife.
_Q._ His wife was in your room?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What did he bring home and give to his wife?
_A._ A small parcel; he gave it to his wife and told her it was of value
and to take care of it.
_Q._ Did he say any thing else to her?
_A._ Nothing else.
_Q._ Did you see any thing more of that parcel on that night?
_A._ Not that night. On Sunday the 20th, he went out about ten o'clock,
between ten and eleven.
_Q._ Did he return again and when?
_A._ He returned before twelve.
_Q._ Did he bring any thing in with him?
_A._ He brought two coats and two opera hats.
_Q._ Did he bring the two coats and two opera hats open or inclosed in
any thing?
_A._ They were in a bundle.
_Q._ Did you see them?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What sort of coats were they?
_A._ They were very dark blue, done with braiding--Officers coats.
_Q._ What coats were they?
_A._ Like Officers coats.
_Q._ What was the braiding?
_A._ It was to ornament the coats.
_Q._ What was it done in?
_A._ In flowers.
_Q._ Of worsted or silk?
_A._ Of worsted.
_Q._ What do you mean by opera hats?
_A._ Shutting together.
_Q._ Did you remark how the coats were lined?
_A._ One was lined with white silk.
_Q._ Were the coats alike, or did one appear of more rank than the
other?
_A._ One appeared of more rank than the other; one was better than the
other, and so was one of the hats.
_Q._ Were the hats plain or ornamented in any way?
_A._ One was black and the other ornamented on one side.
_Q._ What with?
_A._ With a brass plate or something of that kind at the end, and a gold
tassel at each corner.
_Q._ Upon his producing them did he do any thing with them?
_A._ He put them on and asked me if he looked like an Officer, and I
said yes, he did.
_Q._ What did he then do?
_A._ He went out again and came home again before one and brought some
white ribband with him.
_Q._ Did you see him do any thing, or hear him say any thing about that
white ribband?
_A._ Yes, he wanted two cockades to be made.
_Q._ To whom did he apply to make those cockades?
_A._ To his wife--they were to be made round.
_Q._ Was any thing said to him either by you or his wife as to the
purpose, to which they should be applied?
_A._ His wife asked him what they were for, and what he was going to do
with them, and he said they were to deceive the flats.
_Q._ Did you see what he did with the cockades?
_A._ He put them into his pocket and took the coats in his hand, and
went out saying he must be at Billingsgate to go down to Gravesend by a
quarter before two.
_Q._ What did he do with the hats?
_A._ He put them into the bundle.
_Q._ He then went away, did he?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ When did you see Mr. M'Rae again?
_A._ About the same time the next day, about half-past one, or a quarter
before two, I met him in Cursitor-street.
_Q._ Did he say any thing to you?
_A._ He gave me a shilling and asked me to go to the cook's shop for his
dinner.
_Q._ Did any thing else pass in Cursitor-street between you?
_A._ No, not then, I went for his dinner.
_Q._ How was he dressed then?
_A._ Just the same as he went out--in his own cloaths.
_Q._ Had he any thing with him?
_A._ A bundle.
_Q._ Was that the same bundle he took out with him apparently?
_A._ He brought home one coat and one hat.
_Q._ Did you see the contents of that bundle when he got home?
_A._ Yes, the best coat and the best hat he brought home with him.
_Q._ Did he tell you where he had been?
_A._ He said he had slept at Northfleet, but he had the appearance of
not having been a bed at all.
_Q._ He appeared tired?
_A._ He appeared very tired.
_Q._ Did he bring the cockades back?
_A._ Yes, he brought the cockades back in his pocket, the ribband was
taken off.
_Q._ By whom?
_A._ By his wife; and the paper they were quilled on was thrown into the
fire and the ribband made use of for strings, they had not buckram, and
they made up the cockades on paper.
_Q._ Was any thing done with the coat?
_A._ They took the white lining out of the coat, and carried it to the
Dyers to be dyed black.
_Q._ They said they should take it to the Dyers to be dyed black?
_A._ I know they took it out of the house to the Dyers, and the coat he
wore.
_Q._ Before this how long had Mr. M'Rae lodged with you?
_A._ He lodged there before I went, he went about a week before me, I
went in September.
_Q._ From September to February had you lodged together in that house?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Had you been acquainted with him and his wife?
_A._ Never before that, but at that house we kept but one fire; coals
were very dear, and we lived a good deal together there.
_Q._ Had you any means of judging Mr. M'Rae's circumstances as to
poverty or wealth?
_Q._ He was poor, he never had any money except it was a shilling or an
eighteen penny piece.
_Q._ After this expedition to Northfleet, how did he appear in
circumstances?
_A._ Oh, better; he had a £10. note and a £1. note, and the day before
he left his lodgings he had three £2. notes.
_Q._ Do you mean before he finally left his lodgings?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ When was that?
_A._ The second of March I think it was, the second or third to the best
of my knowledge.
_Q._ Do you know of his purchasing any new cloaths for himself?
_A._ Yes, on the Sunday he bought a new coat, dark green, with yellow
buttons.
_Q._ What Sunday was that?
_A._ Not the 20th.
_Q._ The Sunday after his return?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did he buy any other articles of dress?
_A._ A new hat.
_Q._ On what day did he buy that?
_A._ The Monday.
_Q._ Was that the Monday after his return?
_A._ The Monday after he had bought his new coat.
_Q._ Did he tell you whether it had been a successful expedition to him?
_A._ He said he was to have £.50 for what he had done.
_Q._ Had you at any time any conversation with him about the nature of
his journey?
_A._ No, never. He wished when he went away that it might be kept a
secret where he was gone to; he did not wish any body to know where he
was going to; he seemed very much agitated, and I desired he would not
tell me that I might not tell any body else, and I did not know then.
_Mr. Philip Foxall sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Bolland._
_Q._ You keep the Rose Inn at Dartford?
_A._ I do.
_Q._ Look at that letter, and tell me whether you received it at any
time, and when, from the person whose name it bears?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ I see it purports to be from Mr. Sandom?
_A._ It was from Mr. Sandom.
_Q._ Did you know Mr. Sandom before that time?
_A._ I did, by his frequently having chaises ordered from my house?
_Q._ Did you execute that order?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And sent a chaise to bring the party to Dartford?
_A._ Yes; and I had horses ready, as the letter advised me.
_Q._ Had you sent chaises on a similar message before?
_A._ Yes I had, by messages, and by letter; and he also came down there
in the chaise.
_Lord Ellenborough._ By a message in writing coming to you?
_A._ Yes sometimes; this came by a boy.
_Q._ You do not know his hand-writing?
_A._ No I do not.
_The Letter was read as follows_: