M^r Randolph's motion requiring the Legisl^{re} to take a periodical
census for the purpose of redressing inequalities in the Representation
was resumed.
M^r Sherman was ag^{st}. Shackling the Legislature too much. We ought to
choose wise & good men, and then confide in them.
M^r Mason. The greater the difficulty we find in fixing a proper rule of
Representation, the more unwilling ought we to be, to throw the task
from ourselves on the Gen^l Legisl^{re}. He did not object to the
conjectural ratio which was to prevail in the outset; but considered a
Revision from time to time according to some permanent & precise
standard as essential to y^e fair representation required in the 1^{st}
branch. According to the present population of America, the North^n part
of it had a right to preponderate, and he could not deny it. But he
wished it not to preponderate hereafter when the reason no longer
continued. From the nature of man we may be sure that those who have
power in their hands will not give it up while they can retain it. On
the contrary we know that they will always when they can rather increase
it. If the S. States therefore should have 3/4 of the people of America
within their limits, the Northern will hold fast the majority of
Representatives. 1/4 will govern the 3/4. The S. States will complain;
but they may complain from generation to generation without redress.
Unless some principle therefore which will do justice to them hereafter
shall be inserted in the Constitution, disagreable as the declaration
was to him, he must declare he could neither vote for the system here,
nor support it, in his State. Strong objections had been drawn from the
danger to the Atlantic interests from new Western States. Ought we to
sacrifice what we know to be right in itself, lest it should prove
favorable to States which are not yet in existence. If the Western
States are to be admitted into the Union, as they arise, they must, he
w^d repeat, be treated as equals, and subjected to no degrading
discriminations. They will have the same pride & other passions which we
have and will either not unite with or will speedily revolt from the
Union, if they are not in all respects placed on an equal footing with
their brethren. It has been said they will be poor, and unable to make
equal contributions to the general Treasury. He did not know but that in
time they would be both more numerous & more wealthy than their Atlantic
brethren. The extent & fertility of their soil, made this probable; and
though Spain might for a time deprive them of the natural outlet for
their productions, yet she will, because she must, finally yield to
their demands. He urged that numbers of inhabitants; though not always a
precise standard of wealth was sufficiently so for every substantial
purpose.
M^r Williamson was for making it a duty of the Legislature to do what
was right & not leaving it at liberty to do or not to do it. He moved
that M^r Randolph's propositions be postpon^d in order to consider the
following "that in order to ascertain the alterations that may happen in
the population & wealth of the several States, a census shall be taken
of the free white inhabitants and 3/5^{ths} of those of other
descriptions on the 1^{st} year after this Government shall have been
adopted and every ---- year thereafter; and that the Representation be
regulated accordingly."
M^r Randolph agreed that M^r Williamson's proposition should stand in
the place of his. He observed that the ratio fixt for the 1^{st} meeting
was a mere conjecture, that it placed the power in the hands of that
part of America, which could not always be entitled to it, that this
power would not be voluntarily renounced; and that it was consequently
the duty of the Convention to secure its renunciation when justice might
so require; by some constitutional provisions. If equality between great
& small States be inadmissible, because in that case unequal numbers of
Constituents w^d be represented by equal number of votes; was it not
equally inadmissible that a larger & more populous district of America
should hereafter have less representation, than a smaller & less
populous district. If a fair representation of the people be not
secured, the injustice of the Gov^t will shake it to its foundations.
What relates to suffrage is justly stated by the celebrated Montesquieu,
as a fundamental article in Republican Gov^t. If the danger suggested by
M^r Gov^r Morris be real, of advantage being taken of the Legislature in
pressing moments, it was an additional reason, for tying their hands in
such a manner that they could not sacrifice their trust to momentary
considerations. Cong^s have pledged the public faith to New States, that
they shall be admitted on equal terms. They never would or ought to
accede on any other. The census must be taken under the direction of the
General Legislature. The States will be too much interested to take an
impartial one for themselves.
M^r Butler & Gen^l Pinkney insisted that blacks be included in the rule
of Representation _equally_ with the whites; and for that purpose moved
that the words "three-fifths" be struck out.
M^r Gerry thought that 3/5 of them was to say the least the full
proportion that could be admitted.
M^r Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Cong^s as a rule of taxation. Then
it was urged by the Delegates representing the States having slaves that
the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present when the
ratio of representation is to be established, we are assured that they
are equal to freemen. The arguments on y^e former occasion convinced him
that 3/5 was pretty near the just proportion and he should vote
according to the same opinion now.
M^r Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in S. Carol^a was as
productive & valuable as that of a freeman in Mass^{ts}, that as wealth
was the great means of defence and utility to the Nation they were
equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal
representation ought to be allowed for them in a Government which was
instituted principally for the protection of property, and was itself to
be supported by property.
M^r Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was
favorable to Virg^a because he thought it unjust. It was certain that
the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased
the exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means
of feeding & supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become
themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to
the Community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate
of Representation. He could not however regard them as equal to freemen
and could not vote for them as such. He added as worthy of remark, that
the Southern States have this peculiar species of property over & above
the other species of property common to all the States.
M^r Williamson reminded M^r Ghorum that if the South^n States contended
for the inferiority of blacks to whites when taxation was in view, the
Eastern States on the same occasion contended for their equality. He did
not however either then or now concur in either extreme, but approved of
the ratio of 3/5.
On M^r Butler's motion for considering blacks as equal to Whites in the
apportionm^t of Representation
Mass^{ts} no. Con^t no. (N. Y. not on floor). N. J. no. P^a no.
Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
M^r Gov^r Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of
M^r Williamson. 1. It fettered the Legislature too much. 2. it would
exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to
entitle them to a single Representative. 3. it will not consist with the
Resolution passed on Saturday last authorizing the Legislature to adjust
the Representation from time to time on the principles of population &
wealth or with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered
as inhabitants, not as wealth then the s^d Resolution would not be
pursued. If as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included?
These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments. His great
objection was that the number of inhabitants was not a proper standard
of wealth. The amazing difference between the comparative numbers &
wealth of different countries, rendered all reasoning superfluous on the
subject. Numbers might with greater propriety be deemed a measure of
strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made by G. Britain,
ag^{st} her numerous enemies proved in the clearest manner, that it is
entirely fallacious even in this respect.
M^r King thought there was great force in the objections of M^r Gov^r
Morris: he would however accede to the proposition for the sake of doing
something.
M^r Rutlidge contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by
which Representation should be regulated. The Western States will not be
able to contribute in proportion to their numbers; they sh^d not
therefore be represented in that proportion. The Atlantic States will
not concur in such a plan. He moved that "at the end of ---- years after
the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature, and of every ---- years
thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation
according to the principles of wealth & population."
M^r Sherman thought the number of people alone the best rule for
measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature
were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by
numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion
of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observation of (M^r
Randolph & M^r Mason), that the _periods_ & the _rule_, of revising the
Representation ought to be fixt by the Constitution.
M^r Reed thought the Legislature ought not to be too much shackled. It
would make the Constitution like Religious Creeds, embarrassing to those
bound to conform to them & more likely to produce dissatisfaction and
scism, than harmony and union.
M^r Mason objected to M^r Rutlidge's motion, as requiring of the
Legislature something too indefinite & impracticable, and leaving them a
pretext for doing nothing.
M^r Wilson had himself no objection to leaving the Legislature entirely
at liberty. But considered wealth as an impracticable rule.
M^r Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively so little biassed by
local views are so much perplexed, How can it be expected that the
Legislature hereafter under the full biass of those views, will be able
to settle a standard. He was convinced by the arguments of others & his
own reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some standard or
other.
M^r Gov^r Morris. The arg^{ts} of others & his own reflections had led
him to a very different conclusion. If we can't agree on a rule that
will be just at this time, how can we expect to find one that will be
just in all times to come. Surely those who come after us will judge
better of things present, than we can of things future. He could not
persuade himself that numbers would be a just rule at any time. The
remarks of (M^r Mason) relative to the Western Country had not changed
his opinion on that head. Among other objections it must be apparent
they would not be able to furnish men equally enlightened, to share in
the administration of our common interests. The Busy haunts of men not
the remote wilderness, was the proper school of political Talents. If
the Western people get the power into their hands they will ruin the
Atlantic interests. The Back members are always most averse to the best
measures. He mentioned the case of Pen^a formerly. The lower part of the
State had y^e power in the first instance. They kept it in y^r own hands
& the country was y^e better for it. Another objection with him ag^{st}
admitting the blacks into the census, was that the people of Pen^a would
revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would
reject any plan that was to have such an effect. Two objections had been
raised ag^{st} leaving the adjustment of the Representation from time,
to time, to the discretion of the Legislature. The 1. was, they would be
unwilling to revise it at all. The 2 that by referring to _wealth_ they
would be bound by a rule which if willing, they would be unable to
execute. The 1^{st} obj^n distrusts their fidelity. But if their duty,
their honor & their oaths will not bind them, let us not put into their
hands our liberty, and all our other great interests; let us have no
Gov^t at all. 2. If these ties will bind them, we need not distrust the
practicability of the rule. It was followed in part by the Com^e in the
apportionment of Representatives yesterday reported to the House. The
best course that could be taken would be to leave the interests of the
people to the Representatives of the people.
M^r Madison was not a little surprised to hear this implicit confidence
urged by a member who on all occasions, had inculcated so strongly, the
political depravity of men, and the necessity of checking one vice and
interest by opposing to them another vice & interest. If the
Representatives of the people would be bound by the ties he had
mentioned, what need was there of a Senate? What of a Revisionary power?
But his reasoning was not only inconsistent with his former reasoning,
but with itself. At the same time that he recommended this implicit
confidence to the Southern States in the Northern majority, he was still
more zealous in exhorting all to a jealousy of a Western Majority. To
reconcile the gentl^n with himself, it must be imagined that he
determined the human character by the points of the compass. The truth
was that all men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain
degree. The case of Pen^a had been mentioned where it was admitted that
those who were possessed of the power in the original settlement, never
admitted the new settlem^{ts} to a due share of it. England was a still
more striking example. The power there had long been in the hands of the
boroughs, of the minority; who had opposed & defeated every reform which
had been attempted. Virg^a was in a lesser degree another example. With
regard to the Western States, he was clear & firm in opinion, that no
unfavorable distinctions were admissible either in point of justice or
policy. He thought also that the hope of contributions to the Treas^y
from them had been much underrated. Future contributions it seemed to be
understood on all hands would be principally levied on imports &
exports. The extent and fertility of the Western Soil would for a long
time give to agriculture a preference over manufactures. Trials would be
repeated till some articles could be raised from it that would bear a
transportation to places where they could be exchanged for imported
manufactures. Whenever the Mississippi should be opened to them, which
would of necessity be y^e case as soon as their population would subject
them to any considerable share of the Public burden, imposts on their
trade could be collected with less expence & greater certainty, than on
that of the Atlantic States. In the mean time, as their supplies must
pass through the _Atlantic States_, their contributions would be levied
in the same manner with those of the Atlantic States. He could not agree
that any substantial objection lay ag^{st} fix^g numbers for the
perpetual standard of Representation. It was said that Representation &
taxation were to go together; that taxation and wealth ought to go
together, that population & wealth were not measures of each other. He
admitted that in different climates, under different forms of Gov^t and
in different stages of civilization the inference was perfectly just. He
would admit that in no situation, numbers of inhabitants were an
accurate measure of wealth. He contended however that in the U. States
it was sufficiently so for the object in contemplation. Altho' their
climate varied considerably, yet as the Gov^{ts} the laws, and the
manners of all were nearly the same, and the intercourse between
different parts perfectly free, population, industry, arts, and the
value of labour, would constantly tend to equalize themselves. The value
of labour might be considered as the principal criterion of wealth and
ability to support taxes; and this would find its level in different
places where the intercourse should be easy & free, with as much
certainty as the value of money or any other thing. Wherever labour
would yield most, people would resort, till the competition should
destroy the inequality. Hence it is that the people are constantly
swarming from the more to the less populous places--from Europe to
Am^a--from the North^n & Middle parts of the U. S. to the Southern &
Western. They go where land is cheaper, because there labour is dearer.
If it be true that the same quantity of produce raised on the banks of
the Ohio is of less value, than on the Delaware, it is also true that
the same labor will raise twice or thrice, the quantity in the former,
that it will raise in the latter situation.
Col. Mason. Agreed with M^r Gov^r Morris that we ought to leave the
interests of the people to the Representatives of the people; but the
objection was that the Legislature would cease to be the Representatives
of the people. It would continue so no longer than the States now
containing a majority of the people should retain that majority. As soon
as the Southern & Western population should predominate, which must
happen in a few years, the power w^d be in the hands of the minority,
and would never be yielded to the majority, unless provided for by the
Constitution.
On the Question for postponing M^r Williamson's motion, in order
to consider that of M^r Rutlidge, it passed in the negative,
Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.
V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
On the question on the first clause of M^r Williamson's motion
as to taking a census of the free inhabitants, it passed in the
affirmative; Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no.
M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.
the next clause as to 3/5 of the negroes considered.
M^r King being much opposed to fixing numbers as the rule of
representation, was particularly so on account of the blacks. He thought
the admission of them along with Whites at all, would excite great
discontents among the States having no slaves. He had never said as to
any particular point that he would in no event acquiesce in & support
it; but he w^d say that if any in case such a declaration was to be made
by him, it would be in this. He remarked that in the temporary allotment
of Representatives made by the Committee, the Southern States had
received more than the number of their white & Three fifths of their
black inhabitants entitled them to.
M^r Sherman. S. Carol^a had not more beyond her proportion than N. York
& N. Hampshire, nor either of them more than was necessary in order to
avoid fractions or reducing them below their proportions. Georgia had
more; but the rapid growth of that State seemed to justify it. In
general the allotment might not be just, but considering all
circumstances, he was satisfied with it.
M^r Ghorum. supported the propriety of establishing numbers as the rule.
He said that in Mass^{ts} estimates had been taken in the different
towns, and that persons had been curious enough to compare these
estimates with the respective numbers of people; and it had been found
even including Boston, that the most exact proportion prevailed between
numbers & property. He was aware that there might be some weight in what
had fallen from his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken by
the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected that when the
proposition of Cong^s for changing the 8^{th} art: of the Confed^n was
before the Legislature of Mass^{ts} the only difficulty then was to
satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have been counted equally
with whites instead of being counted in ratio of three-fifths only.[129]
[129] They were then to have been a rule of taxation only.
Note in Madison's handwriting.
M^r Wilson did not well see on what principle the admission of blacks in
the proportion of three fifths could be explained. Are they admitted as
Citizens? then why are they not admitted on an equality with White
Citizens? are they admitted as property? then why is not other property
admitted into the computation? These were difficulties however which he
thought must be overruled by the necessity of compromise. He had some
apprehensions also from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with
the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pen^a, as had been
intimated by his Colleague (M^r Gov^r Morris). But he differed from him
in thinking numbers of inhab^{ts} so incorrect a measure of wealth. He
had seen the Western settlem^{ts} of P^a and on a comparison of them
with the City of Philad^a could discover little other difference, than
that property was more unequally divided among individuals here than
there. Taking the same number in the aggregate in the two situations he
believed there would be little difference in their wealth and ability to
contribute to the public wants.
M^r Gov^r Morris was compelled to declare himself reduced to the dilemma
of doing injustice to the Southern States or to human nature, and he
must therefore do it to the former. For he could never agree to give
such encouragement to the Slave Trade as would be given by allowing them
a representation for their negroes, and he did not believe those States
would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of that trade.
On Question for agreeing to include 3/5 of the blacks Mass^{ts}
no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d[130] no. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.
[130] (M^r Carrol s^d in explanation of the vote of
M^d that he wished the phraseology to be so altered
as to obviate if possible the danger which had been
expressed of giving umbrage to the Eastern & Middle
States.) Note in Madison's hand.
On the question as to taking census "the first year after the meeting of
the Legislature"
Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.
V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.
On filling the blank for the periodical census, with 15 years. Agreed to
nem. con.
M^r Madison moved to add, after "15 years," the words "at least" that
the Legislature might anticipate when circumstances were likely to
render a particular year inconvenient.
On this motion for adding "at least," it passed in the negative the
States being equally divided.
Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay.
N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
A Change of the phraseology of the other clause so as to read, "and the
Legislature shall alter or augment the representation accordingly," was
agreed to nem. con.
On the question on the whole resolution of M^r Williamson as amended,
Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no.
S. C. no. Geo. no.