M^r Gerry delivered in from the Committee appointed on Monday last the
following Report.
"The Committee to whom was referred the 8^{th} Resol. of the
Report from the Committee of the Whole House, and so much of the
7^{th} as has not been decided on, submit the following Report:
That the subsequent propositions be recommended to the
Convention on condition that both shall be generally adopted. I.
that in the 1^{st} branch of the Legislature each of the States
now in the Union shall be allowed 1 member for every 40,000
inhabitants of the description reported in the 7^{th} Resolution
of the Com^e of the whole House: that each State not containing
that number shall be allowed 1 member: that all bills for
raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of
the officers of the Govern^t of the U. States shall originate in
the 1^{st} branch of the Legislature, and shall not be altered
or amended by the 2^d branch; and that no money shall be drawn
from the public Treasury but in pursuance of appropriations to
be originated in the 1^{st} branch. "II. That in the 2^d branch
each State shall have an equal vote."[125]
[125] This report was founded on a motion in the
Co[~m]itte made by D^r Franklin. It was barely
acquiesced in by the members from the States opposed
to an equity of votes in the 2^d branch and was
evidently considered by the members on the other
side, as a gaining of their point. A motion was made
by M^r Sherman. He acted in the place of M^r
Elseworth who was kept away by indisposition, in the
Committee to the following effect "that each State
should have an equal vote in the 2^d branch;
provided that no decision therein should prevail
unless the majority of States concurring should also
comprise a majority of the inhabitants of the U.
States." This motion was not much deliberated on nor
approved in the Committee. A similar proviso had
been proposed in the debates on the articles of
Confederation in 1777, to the articles giving
certain powers to "nine States." See Journals of
Cong^s for 1777, p. 462.--Madison Note.
M^r Ghoram observed that as the report consisted of propositions
mutually conditional he wished to hear some explanations touching the
grounds on which the conditions were estimated.
M^r Gerry. The Committee were of different opinions as well as the
Deputations from which the Com^e were taken, and agreed to the Report
merely in order that some ground of accommodation might be proposed.
Those opposed to the equality of votes have only assented conditionally;
and if the other side do not generally agree will not be under any
obligation to support the Report.
Mr. Wilson thought the Committee had exceeded their powers.
M^r Martin was for taking the question on the whole report.
M^r Wilson was for a division of the question; otherwise it w^d be a
leap in the dark.
M^r Madison could not regard the privilege of originating money bills as
any concession on the side of the small States. Experience proved that
it had no effect. If seven States in the upper branch wished a bill to
be originated, they might surely find some member from some of the same
States in the lower branch who would originate it. The restriction as to
amendments was of as little consequence. Amendments could be handed
privately by the Senate to members in the other house. Bills could be
negatived that they might be sent up in the desired shape. If the Senate
should yield to the obstinacy of the 1^{st} branch the use of that body
as a check would be lost. If the 1^{st} branch should yield to that of
the Senate, the privilege would be nugatory. Experience had also shewn
both in G. B. and the States having a similar regulation that it was a
source of frequent & obstinate altercations. These considerations had
produced a rejection of a like motion on a former occasion when judged
by its own merits. It could not therefore be deemed any concession on
the present, and left in force all the objections which had prevailed
ag^{st} allowing each State an equal voice. He conceived that the
Convention was reduced to the alternative of either departing from
justice in order to conciliate the smaller States, and the minority of
the people of the U. S. or of displeasing these by justly gratifying the
larger States and the majority of the people. He could not himself
hesitate as to the option he ought to make. The Convention with justice
& the majority of the people on their side, had nothing to fear. With
injustice and the minority on their side they had every thing to fear.
It was in vain to purchase concord in the Convention on terms which
would perpetuate discord among their Constituents. The Convention ought
to pursue a plan which would bear the test of examination, which would
be espoused & supported by the enlightened and impartial part of
America, & which they could themselves vindicate and urge. It should be
considered that altho' at first many may judge of the system
reco[~m]ended, by their opinion of the Convention, yet finally all will
judge of the Convention by the System. The merits of the System alone
can finally & effectually obtain the public suffrage. He was not
apprehensive that the people of the small States would obstinately
refuse to accede to a Gov^t founded on just principles, and promising
them substantial protection. He could not suspect that Delaware would
brave the consequences of seeking her fortunes apart from the other
States, rather than submit to such a Gov^t; much less could he suspect
that she would pursue the rash policy of courting foreign support, which
the warmth of one of her representatives (M^r Bedford) had suggested, or
if she sh^d, that any foreign nation w^d be so rash as to hearken to the
overture. As little could he suspect that the people of N. Jersey
notwithstanding the decided tone of the gentlemen from that State, would
choose rather to stand on their own legs, and bid defiance to events,
than to acquiesce under an establishment founded on principles the
justice of which they could not dispute, and absolutely necessary to
redeem them from the exactions levied on them by the co[~m]erce of the
neighbouring States. A review of other States would prove that there was
as little reason to apprehend an inflexible opposition elsewhere.
Harmony in the Convention was no doubt much to be desired. Satisfaction
to all the States, in the first instance still more so. But if the
principal States comprehending a majority of the people of the U. S.
should concur in a just & judicious plan, he had the firmest hopes, that
all the other States would by degrees accede to it.[126]
[126] Yates, and his colleague, Lansing, left the Convention
July 5, despairing of the result of its labors being
satisfactory to them. Madison's speech is the last one
reported by Yates.--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc.
M^r Butler said he could not let down his idea of the people, of America
so far as to believe they would from mere respect to the Convention
adopt a plan evidently unjust. He did not consider the privilege
concerning money bills as of any consequence. He urged that the 2^d
branch ought to represent the States according to their property.
M^r Gov^r Morris, thought the form as well as the matter of the Report
objectionable. It seemed in the first place to render amendments
impracticable. In the next place, it seemed to involve a pledge to agree
to the 2^d part if the 1^{st} sh^d be agreed to. He conceived the whole
aspect of it to be wrong. He came here as a Representative of America;
he flattered himself he came here in some degree as a Representative of
the whole human race; for the whole human race will be affected by the
proceedings of this Convention. He wished gentlemen to extend their
views beyond the present moment of time; beyond the narrow limits of
place from which they derive their political origin. If he were to
believe some things which he had heard, he should suppose that we were
assembled to truck and bargain for our particular States. He can not
descend to think that any gentlemen are really actuated by these views.
We must look forward to the effects of what we do. These alone ought to
guide us. Much has been said of the sentiments of the people. They were
unknown. They could not be known. All that we can infer is that if the
plan we recommend be reasonable & right; all Who have reasonable minds
and sound intentions will embrace it, notwithstanding what had been said
by some gentlemen. Let us suppose that the larger States shall agree;
and that the smaller refuse; and let us trace the consequences. The
opponents of the system in the smaller States will no doubt make a
party, and a noise for a time, but the ties of interest, of kindred & of
common habits which connect them with other States will be too strong to
be easily broken. In N. Jersey particularly he was sure a great many
would follow the sentiments of Pen^a & N. York. This Country must be
united. If persuasion does not unite it, the sword will. He begged that
this consideration might have its due weight. The scenes of horror
attending Civil commotion cannot be described, and the conclusion of
them will be worse than the term of their continuance. The stronger
party will then make traytors of the weaker; and the Gallows & Halter
will finish the work of the sword. How far foreign powers would be ready
to take part in the confusions he would not say. Threats that they will
be invited have it seems been thrown out. He drew the melancholy picture
of foreign intrusions as exhibited in the History of Germany, & urged it
as a standing lesson to other nations. He trusted that the Gentlemen who
may have hazarded such expressions, did not entertain them till they
reached their own lips. But returning to the Report he could not think
it in any respect calculated for the Public good. As the 2^d branch is
now constituted, there will be constant disputes & appeals to the States
which will undermine the Gen^l Government & controul & annihilate the
1^{st} branch. Suppose that the delegates from Mass^{ts} & Rho I. in the
Upper House disagree, and that the former are outvoted. What Results?
they will immediately declare that their State will not abide by the
decision, and make such representations as will produce that effect. The
same may happen as to Virg^a & other States. Of what avail then will be
what is on paper. State attachments, and State importance have been the
bane of this Country. We cannot annihilate; but we may perhaps take out
the teeth of the serpents. He wished our ideas to be enlarged to the
true interest of man, instead of being circumscribed within the narrow
compass of a particular Spot. And after all how little can be the motive
yielded by selfishness for such a policy. Who can say whether he
himself, much less whether his children, will the next year be an
inhabitant of this or that State.
M^r Bedford. He found that what he had said as to the small States being
taken by the hand, had been misunderstood; and he rose to explain. He
did not mean that the small States would court the aid & interposition
of foreign powers. He meant that they would not consider the federal
compact as dissolved untill it should be so by the Acts of the large
States. In this case The consequences of the breach of faith on their
part, and the readiness of the small States to fulfill their
engagements, would be that foreign Nations having demands on this
Country would find it their interest to take the small States by the
hand, in order to do themselves justice. This was what he meant. But no
man can foresee to what extremities the small States may be driven by
oppression. He observed also in apology that some allowance ought to be
made for the habits of his profession in which warmth was natural &
sometimes necessary. But is there not an apology in what was said by
(M^r Gov^r Morris) that the sword is to unite: by M^r Ghorum that
Delaware must be annexed to Penn^a and N. Jersey divided between Pen^a
and N. York. To hear such language without emotion, would be to renounce
the feelings of a man and the duty of a Citizen--As to the propositions
of the Committee, the lesser States have thought it necessary to have a
security somewhere. This has been thought necessary for the Executive
Magistrate of the proposed Gov^t who has a sort of negative on the laws;
and is it not of more importance that the States should be protected,
than that the Executive branch of the Gov^t sh^d be protected. In order
to obtain this, the smaller States have conceded as to the constitution
of the first branch, and as to money bills. If they be not gratified by
correspondent concessions as to the 2^d branch is it to be supposed they
will ever accede to the plan; and what will be the consequence if
nothing should be done? The condition of the U. States requires that
something should be immediately done. It will be better that a defective
plan should be adopted, than that none should be recommended. He saw no
reason why defects might not be supplied with meetings 10, 15, or 20
years hence.
M^r Elseworth said he had not attended the proceedings of the Committee,
but was ready to accede to the compromise they had reported. Some
compromise was necessary; and he saw none more convenient or reasonable.
M^r Williamson hoped that the expressions of individuals would not be
taken for the sense of their colleagues, much less of their States which
was not & could not be known. He hoped also that the meaning of those
expressions would not be misconstrued or exaggerated. He did not
conceive that (M^r Gov^r Morris) meant that the sword ought to be drawn
ag^{st} the smaller States. He only pointed out the probable
consequences of anarchy in the U. S. A similar exposition ought to be
given of the expressions of (M^r Ghorum). He was ready to hear the
Report discussed; but thought the propositions contained in it, the most
objectionable of any he had yet heard.
M^r Patterson said that he had when the Report was agreed to in the
Com^e reserved to himself the right of freely discussing it. He
acknowledged that the warmth complained of was improper; but he thought
the Sword & the Gallows little calculated to produce conviction. He
complained of the manner in which M^r M and M^r Gov^r Morris had treated
the small States.
M^r Gerry. Tho' he had assented to the Report in the Committee, he had
very material objections to it. We were however in a peculiar situation.
We were neither the same Nation nor different Nations. We ought not
therefore to pursue the one or the other of these ideas too closely. If
no compromise should take place what will be the consequence. A
secession he foresaw would take place; for some gentlemen seem decided
on it: two different plans will be proposed; and the result no man could
foresee. If we do not come to some agreement among ourselves some
foreign sword will probably do the work for us.
M^r Mason. The Report was meant not as specific propositions to be
adopted; but merely as a general ground of accommodation. There must be
some accommodation on this point, or we shall make little further
progress in the work. Accommodation was the object of the House in the
appointment of the Committee; and of the Committee in the Report they
had made. And however liable the Report might be to objections, he
thought it preferable to an appeal to the world by the different sides,
as had been talked of by some Gentlemen. It could not be more
inconvenient to any gentleman to remain absent from his private affairs,
than it was for him; but he would bury his bones in this City rather
than expose his Country to the Consequences of a dissolution of the
Convention without any thing being done.
The 1^{st} proposition in the report for fixing the representation in
the 1^{st} branch, "one member for every 40,000 inhabitants," being
taken up.
M^r Gov^r Morris objected to that scale of apportionment. He thought
property ought to be taken into the estimate as well as the number of
inhabitants. Life & liberty were generally said to be of more value than
property. An accurate view of the matter would nevertheless prove that
property was the main object of Society. The Savage State was more
favorable to liberty than the Civilized; and sufficiently so to life. It
was preferred by all men who had not acquired a taste for property; it
was only renounced for the sake of property which could only be secured
by the restraints of regular Government. These ideas might appear to
some new, but they were nevertheless just. If property then was the main
object of Gov^t certainly it ought to be one measure of the influence
due to those who were to be affected by the Govern^t. He looked forward
also to that range of New States which w^d soon be formed in the West.
He thought the rule of representation ought to be so fixed as to secure
to the Atlantic States a prevalence in the National Councils. The new
States will know less of the public interest than these, will have an
interest in many respects different, in particular will be little
scrupulous of involving the Community in wars the burdens & operations
of which would fall chiefly on the maritime States. Provision ought
therefore to be made to prevent the maritime States from being hereafter
outvoted by them. He thought this might be easily done by irrevocably
fixing the number of representatives which the Atlantic States should
respectively have, and the number which each new State will have. This
w^d not be unjust, as the Western settlers w^d previously know the
conditions on which they were to possess their lands. It would be
politic as it would reco[~m]end the plan to the present as well as
future interest of the States which must decide the fate of it.
M^r Rutlidge. The gentleman last up had spoken some of his sentiments
precisely. Property was certainly the principal object of Society. If
numbers should be made the rule of representation, the Atlantic States
will be subjected to the Western. He moved that the first proposition in
the report be postponed in order to take up the following viz "that the
suffrages of the several States be regulated and proportioned according
to the sums to be paid towards the general revenue by the inhabitants of
each State respectively: that an apportionment of suffrages, according
to the ratio aforesaid shall be made and regulated at the end of ----
years from the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature of the U. S., and at
the end of every ---- years but that for the present, and until the
period above mentioned, the suffrages shall be for N. Hampshire ---- for
Massach^{ts} ---- &c.
Col. Mason said the case of new States was not unnoticed in the
Committee; but it was thought and he was himself decidedly of opinion
that if they made a part of the Union, they ought to be subject to no
unfavorable discriminations. Obvious considerations required it.
M^r Randolph concurred with Col. Mason.
On Question on M^r Rutlidges motion,
Mas^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.
Mary^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. not on floor.