The clause in Resol. 3 "to receive fixed stipends to be paid out of the
Nation^l Treasury" considered.
M^r Elseworth, moved to substitute payment by the States out of their
own Treasurys: observing that the manners of different States were very
different in the stile of living and in the profits accruing from the
exercise of like talents. What would be deemed therefore a reasonable
compensation in some States, in others would be very unpopular, and
might impede the system of which it made a part.
M^r Williamson favored the idea. He reminded the House of the prospect
of new States to the Westward. They would be too poor--would pay little
into the common Treasury--and would have a different interest from the
old States. He did not think therefore that the latter ought to pay the
expences of men who would be employed in thwarting their measures &
interests.
M^r Ghorum[98] wished not to refer the matter to the State Legislatures
who were always paring down salaries in such a manner as to keep out of
offices men most capable of executing the functions of them. He thought
also it would be wrong to fix the compensations by the constitution,
because we could not venture to make it as liberal as it ought to be
without exciting an enmity ag^{st} the whole plan. Let the Nat^l Legisl:
provide for their own wages from time to time; as the State Legislatures
do. He had not seen this part of their power abused, nor did he
apprehend an abuse of it.
[98] "M^r Gorham is a merchant in Boston, high in reputation,
and much in the esteem of his country-men. He is a man of
very good sense, but not much improved in his education. He
is eloquent and easy in public debate, but has nothing
fashionable or elegant in his style;--all he aims at is to
convince, and where he fails it never is from his auditory
not understanding him, for no man is more perspicuous and
full. He has been President of Congress, and three years a
Member of that Body. M^r Gorham is about 46 years of age,
rather lusty, and has an agreeable and pleasing
manner."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 325.
M^r Randolph said he feared we were going too far, in consulting popular
prejudices. Whatever respect might be due to them, in lesser matters, or
in cases where they formed the permanent character of the people, he
thought it neither incumbent on nor honorable for the Convention, to
sacrifice right & justice to that consideration. If the States were to
pay the members of the Nat^l Legislature, a dependence would be created
that would vitiate the whole System. The whole nation has an interest in
the attendance & services of the members. The Nation^l Treasury
therefore is the proper fund for supporting them.
M^r King, urged the danger of creating a dependence on the States by
leav^g to them the payment of the members of the Nat^l Legislature. He
supposed it w^d be best to be explicit as to the compensation to be
allowed. A reserve on that point, or a reference to the Nat^l
Legislature of the quantum, would excite greater opposition than any sum
that would be actually necessary or proper.
M^r Sherman contended for referring both the quantum and the payment of
it to the State Legislatures.
M^r Wilson was ag^{st} _fixing_ the compensation as circumstances would
change and call for a change of the amount. He thought it of great
moment that the members of the Nat^l Gov^t should be left as independent
as possible of the State Gov^{ts} in all respects.
M^r Madison concurred in the necessity of preserving the compensations
for the Nat^l Gov^t independent on the State Gov^{ts} but at the same
time approved of _fixing_ them by the Constitution, which might be done
by taking a standard which w^d not vary with circumstances. He disliked
particularly the policy suggested by M^r Williamson of leaving the
members from the poor States beyond the Mountains, to the precarious &
parsimonious support of their constituents. If the Western States
hereafter arising should be admitted into the Union, they ought to be
considered as equals & as brethren. If their representatives were to be
associated in the Common Councils, it was of common concern that such
provisions should be made as would invite the most capable and
respectable characters into the service.
M^r Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from _fixing_ the wages. He was
strenuous ag^{st} making the National Council dependent on the
Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of
those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the
distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and
more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Gov^t. He expatiated
emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the
_people_--& the _Governments_ of the States arising from the personal
interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly
to the Gen^l Gov^t.
M^r Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1^{st} branch "_be ascertained
by the National Legislature_," and be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury.
M^r Madison, thought the members of the Legis^l too much interested to
ascertain their own compensation. It w^d be indecent to put their hands
into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.
On this question Mass. no. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay.
P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.
On the question for striking out "Nat^l Treasury" as moved by M^r
Elseworth.
M^r Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction
between the State Gov^{ts} & the people. The former w^d be the rivals of
the Gen^l Gov^t. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the
paymasters of the latter.
M^r Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Gov^{ts} they will be so
of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Gov^t such powers
because we c^d not trust you. Will they adopt it, and with^t y^r
approbation it is a nullity.[99]
[99] According to Yates, Wilson followed Ellsworth:
"Mr. Wilson. I am not for submitting the national government
to the approbation of the state legislatures. I know that
they and the state officers will oppose it. I am for
carrying it to the people of each state."--Yates, _Secret
Proceedings_, etc., 153.
Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. no. Pen^a no.
Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.[100]
[100] (It appeared that Mass^{ts} concurred, not because they
thought the State Treas^y ought to be substituted; but
because they thought nothing should be said on the subject,
in which case it w^d silently devolve on the Nat^l Treasury
to support the National Legislature.)--Madison's Note.
On a question for substituting "adequate compensation" in place of "fixt
stipends" it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being
willing that the practicability of _fixing_ the compensation should be
considered hereafter in forming the details.
It was then moved by M^r Butler that a question be taken on both points
jointly; to wit "adequate compensation to be paid out of the Nat^l
Treasury." It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been
separately decided on. The Presid^t refer^d the question of order to the
House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. M^d N. C.
S. C.--ay.--N. Y. P^a V^a Geo. no.--Mass. divided. The question on the
sentence was then postponed by S. Carolina in right of the State.
Col. Mason moved to insert "twenty-five years of age as a qualification
for the members of the 1^{st} branch." He thought it absurd that a man
today should not be permitted by the law to make a bargain for himself,
and tomorrow should be authorized to manage the affairs of a great
nation. It was more extraordinary as every man carried with him in his
own experience a scale for measuring the deficiency of young
politicians; since he would if interrogated be obliged to declare that
his political opinions at the age of 21. were too crude & erroneous to
merit an influence on public measures. It had been said that Cong^s had
proved a good school for our young men. It might be so for any thing he
knew but if it were, he chose that they should bear the expence of their
own education.
M^r Wilson was ag^{st} abridging the rights of election in any shape. It
was the same thing whether this were done by disqualifying the objects
of choice, or the persons chusing. The motion tended to damp the efforts
of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for
incapacitating _youth_ than _age_, where the requisite qualifications
were found. Many instances might be mentioned of signal services
rendered in high stations to the public before the age of 25: The
present M^r Pitt and Lord Bolingbroke were striking instances.