The House resumed the consideration of the unfinished business of
yesterday, being the report of a committee on fortifying our ports and
harbors.
The question was taken on the amendment offered by Mr. VAN CORTLANDT,
which was disagreed to--ayes 51, noes 54.
The question then recurred on filling the blank in the 2d resolution with
“$250,000,” for building fifty gunboats.
Mr. MUMFORD.--I hope a majority of this House will agree to strike out
the whole resolution respecting gunboats, with a view to appropriate
that money to solid and durable fortifications. I was opposed to it in
Committee of the Whole. I did then, and do now consider, that there is no
necessity for any more gunboats. There are, in my opinion, a sufficient
number already for the Southern sections of the Union, for which places
they appear to be only adapted, except in a very few places to the North,
where there is shoal water. They may answer a very good purpose in shoal
water, but are inadequate for the defence of your ports and harbors to
the north of the New Jersey shore; and I very much doubt, whether, in a
gale of wind, they would not even sink at their mooring at the entrance
of either of the harbors of Portsmouth, Salem, Plymouth, Newport, or New
York.
It has been asserted that this was an electioneering scheme, and that
as soon as our Spring elections were over, no more would be thought
of it until the next election. I wish, sir, to put this question to
eternal rest, by stating the plain matter of fact. Why, sir, it has been
considered of so serious a nature in its consequences, and of so much
importance, that the Legislature of the State of New York, in their last
session, did enter into formal resolutions, instructing their delegation,
in both branches of the Legislature of the United States, to use their
utmost endeavors for the defence and protection of the port and harbor
of New York: the whole State is alive on this subject--and the memorials
now lying on your table from the Mayor and Corporation of that city,
together with the petitions from the citizens of all political parties,
tend to one and the same object, protection to their persons and to their
property; there is not, there cannot be any dissenting voice with them on
this subject.
Mr. J. RANDOLPH was too unwell to go far into the subject, but he would
ask the House whether they were acting with their accustomed caution
and distrust, where the expenditure of public money was involved? He
thought not. If he were convinced that the expenditure of $150,000 or
even $1,500,000 would answer the proposed end, he would cheerfully give
it. But, as had been observed, the system of gunboats was matter of
experiment, and if they should eventually turn out good for nothing, the
House would be of opinion that they had vested as large a capital in a
worthless project as would be deemed necessary. He would not undertake
to say that they were good for nothing--far from it. But there was no
information before the House which entitled him to say they were good for
much. When you compare, said Mr. R., the lavish appropriation made on
this subject in Committee of the Whole, and view the economy this House
always practises on every branch of expenditure, relative to the regular
army and navy, looking with an eagle eye on every dollar before they part
with it--it surprises me to see them voting away hundreds of thousands
of dollars for a species of vessel, which, in all human probability, may
be used for river craft in a few years. One thing has been ascertained.
Ships of war are defensive and offensive, too, but the House will vote
no money for an addition to them. I do not censure them for it; but if
they will not appropriate for objects, the physical powers of which are
ascertained, why vote the public treasure by handfuls for vessels, the
powers of which have never been tried? Let the experiment be made, and,
if it succeeds, let us appropriate liberally; but, till then, let us not
vote more money than has been already appropriated. I believe there is
one situation in which they may be useful--in the Mississippi. I wish,
however, not to be understood as speaking as a man of science on this
business. I only wish some evidence of the value of this machine, before
I vest so large a capital in it. I hope, therefore, that the blank will
not be filled with $150,000. As it has been stated, I think it will be
extremely disproportionate to vote $20,000 for the fortification of all
our harbors, and $150,000 for gunboats.
Mr. ELMER said that, under existing circumstances, he was opposed to
appropriating 150,000 dollars to building additional gunboats. The House
had determined that they would not authorize the President to man those
already built. It appeared to him very bad economy to suffer the public
vessels to lie in dock, and to build other vessels, the utility of
which was not ascertained. There might be situations in which gunboats
would be useful, but had they not enough of them already? If it should
be ascertained that thirty or forty gunboats should be wanted for any
particular purpose, Mr. E. said it might be prudent to authorize their
erection. He said he had been in favor of giving authority to the
President to man and equip the armed vessels and gunboats. The House had,
however, refused this. If, then, they would not authorize the President,
whatever the emergency, to man the present vessels, why build additional
vessels?
Mr. HOLLAND was opposed to filling the blank with so large a sum. He was
also opposed to giving authority to man the armed vessels. The nation was
in a state of profound peace, and he did not see that these vessels would
have any thing to do. He was opposed to this appropriation on another
ground. He believed, whenever the necessity should occur, they would be
able, in one, two, or three months, to build as many gunboats as would be
wanted.
Mr. GREGG said, from the discussions which had taken place, and the votes
of the House, there might be a propriety in postponing the business for
the purpose of obtaining information. For his own part, he was willing
to acknowledge that he was altogether in the dark. He did not know in
what situation gunboats would be useful, or the number of men required
to man them; nor did he know whether land fortifications were necessary,
in connection with them, to defend the port of New York. Before he could
act understandingly on the subject, it was necessary for him to have
this information. Some gentlemen say that gunboats will answer valuable
purposes, while there are others of opinion that there are so few places,
on the coast of the United States, where they will answer, that a small
number of them will be sufficient. I believe, said Mr. G., under these
circumstances, that it will be best to postpone the further consideration
of the subject, and, in the mean time, call on the Secretary of the Navy
to say at what points gunboats will answer, together with the number
of them necessary, and on the Secretary at War to say whether he is in
possession of any plan for the protection of New York, together with
its expense and the number of men required. It will be next to madness
to erect fortifications without putting in them sufficient men to keep
them in repair. Many fortifications, commenced some years ago, for want
of this provision, are now as useless as if they never had been begun.
Mr. G. said he was particularly desirous to obtain information from the
Executive as to the practicability of defending the port of New York. If
it could be defended, he would not be backward on the subject.
Mr. FISK hoped the motion would prevail. Experience had proved gunboats
to be useful. In their late war with Tripoli, they had been obliged to
borrow a number of them, which had proved not only an instrument of
defence, but likewise of offence. It was true, also, that, in other
cases, they would be useful. Indeed, they appeared to be peculiarly
adapted to the United States, who had a large extent of seacoast and
numbers of shoals, enabling them to act with effect; that they would rot
in time was true; it was also equally true that other shipping would
rot; and that the loss of fifty or sixty gunboats would not be equal to
that of a single frigate. It was also equally true that gunboats did not
require the same expense in manning and equipping as other vessels; they
were also so situated as to be capable of being instantly manned, which
was not the case in regard to other vessels. The Secretary of the Navy
had stated the number of men necessary for each gunboat at twenty-seven.
Take three hundred and fifty men as necessary for a frigate; of course
thirteen gunboats will not require more men than one frigate. Mr. F. said
he thought gunboats, in every point of view, the preferable defence. The
Secretary of the Navy had stated sixty gunboats to be requisite. For the
purpose, however, of accommodation, it is proposed to lessen the number
of gunboats to thirty, and to apply the remaining sum to fortifications.
He hoped this motion would prevail.
Mr. EARLY moved to postpone the further consideration of the second
resolution to Monday week. In common with other members, he felt the
necessity of information, before he agreed to carry further the system
of gunboat defence. It appeared from the report of the Secretary of the
Navy, that there were built, or on the stocks, seventy gunboats. He,
for one, was of the opinion that this was a number amply sufficient to
justify the requiring at least some information on the subject, either
as to the ports capable of being defended by them, or their general
capability of yielding defence to the United States.
The motion to postpone was disagreed to--ayes 49, noes 58.
Mr. G. W. CAMPBELL said he was in favor of filling the blank with
$150,000, as from all the official information before the House this
appeared to be the best mode of defence which had been devised. He
observed that some time since a majority of the House had considered
the gunboat system as the best means of defence. He would ask gentlemen
who were then in favor of this system, and were now opposed to it, what
reasons they had for their change of opinion. If the President and
Heads of Departments were of opinion that such a number of gunboats was
necessary as had been named, he would ask them what reasons they had
for thinking a smaller number sufficient, and whether the mere _ipse
dixit_ of a member of this House ought to stand in competition with the
deliberate opinion of the heads of departments? They were peculiarly
responsible to the nation, and must be considered as having taken more
pains to inform themselves on such a subject than an individual member of
the House.
Mr. PITKIN, in reply to Mr. FISK, observed, that he had compared the
estimates of a frigate and gunboats, from which he inferred that the
equipment and annual expense of a frigate of 44 guns, compared to that of
gunboats, was as eighteen to one.
Mr. ELLIOT said, that if the opinion of the President should be complied
with, there would be one hundred and twenty-nine gunboats built, which
in actual service would transcend the expense of the Navy of the United
States, and would cost more than a million of dollars. Mr. E. said he
considered the reproach cast upon those who were formerly the advocates
of gunboats, as strong evidence of their inutility. Gunboats had been
lately thought much of; what was the result? That gunboats might be
considered as a kind of vessel guarding a little deposit of national
spirit, if any there was left to put on board: but as soon as they were
assailed by the wind or waves, their maiden purity was gone. They were of
no use whenever there was wind or tide, and could only float in a time of
profound tranquillity.
Mr. ALSTON said he possessed little information with regard to the
advantages or disadvantages that were likely to flow from building the
number of gunboats that was proposed. He merely rose to ask the attention
of gentlemen to the grounds taken at the last session. The building of
gunboats had been instituted on the recommendation of the President made
at the last session. Gentlemen would there find the reasons on which
that system had been begun. They were not intended to be set afloat on
the ocean, to commit depredation or attack vessels at sea, but as an aid
and support to our fortifications, and to prevent an enemy from annoying
our seaports. It was, he believed, the opinion of the House at the last
session, that gunboats constituted the best system that could be devised
for this purpose.
Mr. EARLY moved to postpone the further consideration of the resolution
until this day week.
Mr. LLOYD said he should have no objection to the postponement, if he
knew any mode of obtaining the information desired. It appeared that
the committee had applied to the Secretary of the Navy, who ought to
possess full information on the subject. What was his reply? Waiving
altogether the expression of his own opinion, he merely confined himself
to stating that the President thinks it expedient to build sixty
additional gunboats. Whence, then, were they to get the information that
was desired, to enable them to determine whether gunboats are a proper
defence for the United States? They might apply to the President or the
Secretary of the Navy, and get information from them that they think them
necessary. Mr. L., however, said that he was of opinion that they ought
to judge on this subject from what had already taken place. For himself
he was free to declare that he was opposed to the gunboat system. He had
carefully attended to the arguments of gentlemen, and to what did they
amount? Have they adduced an argument to show their utility, or produced
an instance to show where they have been useful? It has been said that
their utility is established by the use made of them against Tripoli. But
he would ask whether they would have been of any use if the vessels of
Tripoli had left the shore? It was admitted that gunboats were not useful
on the ocean. It was evident, then, that they were building a navy for a
state of perfect calm; and were gentlemen disposed to expend millions
for vessels that would be only useful under such circumstances?
Mr. MUMFORD.--The gentleman from North Carolina on my right, said that
if any gentleman can show us any better mode of defence we shall be
glad to hear it, and although I think it incumbent on him to show us
the utility of gunboats, I will not detain the House but a few minutes
to recommend what I conceive to be a far better mode of defence, I mean
solid and durable fortifications that will last for ages, and block-ships
similar to the draught now held in my hand, and which any gentleman
may examine at his leisure if he chooses. Sir, the experience off
Copenhagen is an evidence of their real utility. Witness the engagement
with the British fleet and the Crown battery, (somewhat similar to the
plan of Montalembert, recommended by me in debate yesterday,) and the
block-ships. That fleet was actually silenced, and nothing saved the
proud navy of old England on that memorable day but the game of flag of
truce played off so successfully by the hero of Trafalgar; and when in
order I shall move to adopt those block-ships in place of gunboats.
Mr. TALLMADGE said the question before the House had no connection with
the defence of New York; it was a proposition for building gunboats.
Having been on the select committee that brought in these resolutions,
he thought it proper to state that there had not in that committee
been a unanimous opinion in favor of gunboats. He was himself entirely
hostile to the measure. He saw no necessity for adding to the number
already built, or authorized to be erected. They had thirteen gunboats
fit for service, and fifty-six would be soon launched. It would seem to
him better to comport with the system of economy, in the first instance,
to finish and prepare these fifty-six for service. No reason had been
assigned for the additional sixty that had been proposed, but the mere
opinion of the President. Mr. T. said he did not wish to call in question
the high authority attached to the opinion of the President, but he would
wish to know whether any naval officer had recommended gunboats as a
proper defence for the country. He did believe there were some particular
circumstances under which they would be useful, and under this impression
he had hitherto voted. But when he saw nothing but gunboats called for,
he was placed under the necessity of refusing to grant a single dollar.
It appeared as if they were contemplated to be relied on as the exclusive
defence of the United States, and as if it were intended to let the
frigates rot. He was opposed to the postponement, as he did not see the
probability of obtaining any useful information not already before the
House.
The question was then taken on postponing the consideration of the
resolution until Monday, which was carried--yeas 69.
THURSDAY, February 12.
_Indiana--Suspension of the Anti-slavery Clause of the Ordinance of 1787._
Mr. PARKE, from the committee to whom was referred the letter of William
Henry Harrison, Governor of the Indiana Territory, enclosing certain
resolutions of the Legislative Council and House of Representatives of
the said Territory, made the following report:
That the resolutions of the Legislative Council and House
of Representatives of the Indiana Territory relate to a
suspension, for the term of ten years, of the sixth article of
compact between the United States and the Territories Northwest
of the river Ohio, passed the 13th July, 1787. That article
declares “there shall be neither slavery nor involuntary
servitude in the said territory.”
The suspension of the said article would operate an immediate
and essential benefit to the Territory, as emigration to it
will be inconsiderable for many years, except from those States
where slavery is tolerated; and although it is not considered
expedient to force the population of the Territory, yet it is
desirable to connect its scattered settlements, and, in regard
to political rights, to place it on an equal footing with the
different States. From the interior situation of the Territory,
it is not believed that slaves would ever become so numerous
as to endanger the internal peace or future prosperity of the
country. The current of emigration flowing to the Western
country, the Territories ought all to be opened to their
introduction. The abstract question of liberty and slavery is
not involved in the proposed measure, as slavery now exists
to a considerable extent in different parts of the Union; it
would not augment the number of slaves, but merely authorize
the removal to Indiana of such as are held in bondage in the
United States. If slavery is an evil, means ought to be devised
to render it least dangerous to the community, and by which the
hopeless situation of the slaves would be most ameliorated; and
to accomplish these objects, no measure would be so effectual
as the one proposed. The committee, therefore, respectfully
submit to the House the following resolution:
_Resolved_, That it is expedient to suspend, from and after the
1st day of January, 1808, the sixth article of compact between
the United States and the Territories and States Northwest of
the river Ohio, passed the 13th day of July, 1787, for the term
of ten years.
Referred to the consideration of the Committee of the Whole on Monday
next.
FRIDAY, February 13.
_Importation of Slaves._
The bill, sent from the Senate, entitled “An act to prohibit the
importation of slaves into any port or place within the jurisdiction of
the United States, from and after the first day of January, in the year
of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and eight,” together with the
amendments agreed to yesterday, were read the third time; and, on the
question that the same do pass, it was resolved in the affirmative--yeas
113, nays 5, as follows:
YEAS.--Evan Alexander, Isaac Anderson, John Archer, David Bard,
Joseph Barker, Burwell Bassett, George M. Bedinger, William W.
Bibb, Barnabas Bidwell, Phanuel Bishop, John Blake, jr., Thomas
Blount, James M. Broom, Robert Brown, John Boyle, William A.
Burwell, George W. Campbell, John Chandler, John Claiborne,
Joseph Clay, Matt. Clay, George Clinton, jr., Frederick Conrad,
Orchard Cook, Leonard Covington, Richard Cutts, Samuel W. Dana,
Ezra Darby, John Davenport, jr., Elias Earle, Peter Early,
James Elliot, Caleb Ellis, Ebenezer Elmer, Wm. Ely, John W.
Eppes, William Findlay, James Fisk, Charles Goldsborough,
Peterson Goodwyn, Andrew Gregg, Isaiah L. Green, Silas Halsey,
John Hamilton, Seth Hastings, William Helms, David Holmes, John
G. Jackson, Walter Jones, James Kelly, Thomas Kenan, Nehemiah
Knight, John Lambert, Joseph Lewis, jr., Henry W. Livingston,
Edward Lloyd, Matthew Lyon, Duncan MacFarland, Patrick
Magruder, Robert Marion, Josiah Masters, William McCreery,
David Meriwether, Nicholas R. Moore, Thomas Moore, Jeremiah
Morrow, John Morrow, Jonathan O. Mosely, Gurdon S. Mumford,
Jeremiah Nelson, Thomas Newton, jr., Gideon Olin, Timothy
Pitkin, jr., John Porter, John Pugh, Josiah Quincy, John Rea
of Pennsylvania, John Rhea of Tennessee, Jacob Richards, John
Russell, Peter Sailly, Thomas Sammons, Thomas Sanford, Martin
G. Schuneman, Ebenezer Seaver, James Sloan, Dennis Smelt, John
Smilie, John Smith, Samuel Smith, Richard Stanford, Joseph
Stanton, William Stedman, Samuel Taggart, Benjamin Tallmadge,
Sam’l Tenney, David Thomas, Thomas W. Thompson, Uri Tracy,
Philip Van Cortlandt, Killian K. Van Rensselaer, Joseph B.
Varnum, Daniel C. Verplanck, Peleg Wadsworth, Matthew Walton,
John Whitehill, Robert Whitehill, Eliphalet Wickes, Nathan
Williams, Alex’r Wilson, Joseph Winston, Richard Wynn, and
Thomas Wynns.
NAYS.--Silas Betton, Martin Chittenden, James M. Garnett, Abram
Trigg, and David R. Williams.[47]