Now, my friends, ... I ask the attention of the people here assembled,

and elsewhere, to the course that Judge Douglas is pursuing every day as

bearing upon this question of making slavery national. Not going back to

the records, but taking the speeches he makes, the speeches he made

yesterday and the day before, and makes constantly, all over the

country, I ask your attention to them. In the first place, what is

necessary to make the institution national? Not war: there is no danger

that the people of Kentucky will shoulder their muskets and ... march

into Illinois to force the blacks upon us. There is no danger of our

going over there, and making war upon them. Then what is necessary for

the nationalization of slavery? It is simply the next Dred Scott

decision. It is merely for the Supreme Court to decide that no State

under the Constitution can exclude it, just as they have already decided

that under the Constitution neither Congress nor the territorial

legislature can do it. When that is decided and acquiesced in, the whole

thing is done. This being true and this being the way, as I think, that

slavery is to be made national, let us consider what Judge Douglas is

doing every day to that end. In the first place, let us see what

influence he is exerting on public sentiment. In this and like

communities, public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment

nothing can fail; without it nothing can succeed. Consequently he who

moulds public sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or

pronounces decisions. He makes statutes and decisions possible or

impossible to be executed. This must be borne in mind, as also the

additional fact that Judge Douglas is a man of vast influence, so great

that it is enough for many men to profess to believe anything when they

once find out that Judge Douglas professes to believe it. Consider also

the attitude he occupies at the head of a large party,--a party which he

claims has a majority of all the voters in the country.

This man sticks to a decision which forbids the people of a Territory to

exclude slavery, and he does so not because he says it is right in

itself,--he does not give any opinion on that,--but because it has been

decided by the Court, and, being decided by the Court, he is, and you

are, bound to take it in your political action as law,--not that he

judges at all of its merits, but because a decision of the Court is to

him a "Thus saith the Lord." He places it on that ground alone, and you

will bear in mind that thus committing himself unreservedly to this

decision, commits himself just as firmly to the next one as to this. He

did not commit himself on account of the merit or demerit of the

decision, but it is a "Thus saith the Lord." The next decision as much

as this will be a "Thus saith the Lord." There is nothing that can

divert or turn him away from this decision. It is nothing that I point

out to him that his great prototype, General Jackson, did not believe in

the binding force of decisions. It is nothing to him that Jefferson did

not so believe. I have said that I have often heard him approve of

Jackson's course in disregarding the decision of the Supreme Court

pronouncing a national bank constitutional. He says I did not hear him

say so. He denies the accuracy of my recollection. I say he ought to

know better than I, but I will make no question about this thing, though

it still seems to me that I heard him say it twenty times. I will tell

him, though, that he now claims to stand on the Cincinnati platform,

which affirms that Congress cannot charter a national bank in the teeth

of that old standing decision that Congress can charter a bank. And I

remind him of another piece of Illinois history on the question of

respect for judicial decisions, and it is a piece of Illinois history

belonging to a time when a large party to which Judge Douglas belonged,

were displeased with a decision of the Supreme Court of Illinois,

because they had decided that a Governor could not remove a secretary of

State, and I know that Judge Douglas will not deny that he was then in

favour of over-slaughing that decision, by the mode of adding five new

Judges, so as to vote down the four old ones. Not only so, but it ended

in the Judge's sitting down on the very bench as one of the five new

judges to break down the four old ones. It was in this way precisely

that he got his title of Judge. Now, when the Judge tells me that men

appointed conditionally to sit as members of a Court will have to be

catechized beforehand upon some subject, I say, "You know, Judge; you

have tried it!" When he says a Court of this kind will lose the

confidence of all men, will be prostituted and disgraced by such a

proceeding, I say, "You know best, Judge; you have been through the

mill."

But I cannot shake Judge Douglas's teeth loose from the Dred Scott

decision. Like some obstinate animal (I mean no disrespect) that will

hang on when he has once got his teeth fixed--you may cut off a leg, or

you may tear away an arm, still he will not relax his hold. And so I may

point out to the Judge, and say that he is bespattered all over, from

the beginning of his political life to the present time, with attacks

upon judicial decisions,--I may cut off limb after limb of his public

record, and strive to wrench from him a single dictum of the Court, yet

I cannot divert him from it. He hangs to the last to the Dred Scott

decision.... Henry Clay, my beau ideal of a statesman, ... once said of

a class of men who would repress all tendencies to liberty and ultimate

emancipation, that they must, if they would do this, go back to the era

of our independence, and muzzle the cannon that thunders its annual

joyous return; that they must blow out the moral lights around us; they

must penetrate the human soul, and eradicate there the love of liberty;

and then, and not till then, could they perpetuate slavery in this

country! To my thinking, Judge Douglas is, by his example and vast

influence, doing that very thing in this community when he says that the

negro has nothing in the Declaration of Independence. Henry Clay plainly

understood the contrary. Judge Douglas is going back to the era of our

Revolution, and, to the extent of his ability, muzzling the cannon which

thunders its annual joyous return. When he invites any people, willing

to have slavery, to establish it, he is blowing out the moral lights

around us. When he says he "cares not whether slavery is voted down or

voted up,"--that it is a sacred right of self-government,--he is, in my

judgment, penetrating the human soul and eradicating the light of reason

and the love of liberty in this American people. And now I will only

say, that when, by all these means and appliances, Judge Douglas shall

succeed in bringing public sentiment to an exact accordance with his own

views; when these vast assemblages shall echo back all these sentiments;

when they shall come to repeat his views and avow his principles, and to

say all that he says on these mighty questions,--then it needs only the

formality of a second Dred Scott decision, which he indorses in advance,

to make slavery alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new,

North as well as South.

_Lincoln's Reply to Judge Douglas in the Second Joint Debate. Freeport,

Illinois. August 27, 1858_

... The plain truth is this. At the introduction of the Nebraska policy,

we believed there was a new era being introduced in the history of the

Republic, which tended to the spread and perpetuation of slavery. But in

our opposition to that measure we did not agree with one another in

everything. The people in the north end of the State were for stronger

measures of opposition than we of the southern and central portions of

the State, but we were all opposed to the Nebraska doctrine. We had that

one feeling and one sentiment in common. You at the north end met in

your conventions, and passed your resolutions. We in the middle of the

State and further south did not hold such conventions and pass the same

resolutions, although we had in general a common view and a common

sentiment. So that these meetings which the Judge has alluded to, and

the resolutions he has read from, were local, and did not spread over

the whole State. We at last met together in 1856, from all parts of the

State, and we agreed upon a common platform. You who held more extreme

notions, either yielded those notions, or if not wholly yielding them,

agreed to yield them practically, for the sake of embodying the

opposition to the measures which the opposite party were pushing forward

at that time. We met you then, and if there was anything yielded, it was

for practical purposes. We agreed then upon a platform for the party

throughout the entire State of Illinois, and now we are all bound as a

party to that platform. And I say here to you, if any one expects of me

in the case of my election, that I will do anything not signified by

our Republican platform and my answers here to-day, I tell you very

frankly, that person will be deceived. I do not ask for the vote of any

one who supposes that I have secret purposes or pledges that I dare not

speak out.... If I should never be elected to any office, I trust I may

go down with no stain of falsehood upon my reputation, notwithstanding

the hard opinions Judge Douglas chooses to entertain of me.

_From Lincoln's Reply at Jonesboro'. September 15, 1858_

Ladies and Gentlemen, There is very much in the principles that Judge

Douglas has here enunciated that I most cordially approve, and over

which I shall have no controversy with him. In so far as he insisted

that all the States have the right to do exactly as they please about

all their domestic relations, including that of slavery, I agree

entirely with him. He places me wrong in spite of all I tell him, though

I repeat it again and again, insisting that I have made no difference

with him upon this subject. I have made a great many speeches, some of

which have been printed, and it will be utterly impossible for him to

find anything that I have ever put in print contrary to what I now say

on the subject. I hold myself under constitutional obligations to allow

the people in all the States, without interference, direct or indirect,

to do exactly as they please, and I deny that I have any inclination to

interfere with them, even if there were no such constitutional

obligation. I can only say again that I am placed improperly--altogether

improperly, in spite of all that I can say--when it is insisted that I

entertain any other view or purpose in regard to that matter.

While I am upon this subject, I will make some answers briefly to

certain propositions that Judge Douglas has put. He says, "Why can't

this Union endure permanently half slave and half free?" I have said

that I supposed it could not, and I will try, before this new audience,

to give briefly some of the reasons for entertaining that opinion.

Another form of his question is, "Why can't we let it stand as our

fathers placed it?" That is the exact difficulty between us. I say that

Judge Douglas and his friends have changed it from the position in which

our fathers originally placed it.

I say in the way our fathers originally left the slavery question, the

institution was in the course of ultimate extinction. I say when this

government was first established, it was the policy of its founders to

prohibit the spread of slavery into the new Territories of the United

States where it had not existed. But Judge Douglas and his friends have

broken up that policy, and placed it upon a new basis, by which it is to

become national and perpetual. All I have asked or desired anywhere is

that it should be placed back again upon the basis that the fathers of

our government originally placed it upon. I have no doubt that it would

become extinct for all time to come, if we had but readopted the policy

of the fathers by restricting it to the limits it has already

covered--restricting it from the new Territories.

I do not wish to dwell on this branch of the subject at great length at

this time, but allow me to repeat one thing that I have stated before.

Brooks, the man who assaulted Senator Sumner on the floor of the Senate,

and who was complimented with dinners and silver pitchers and

gold-headed canes, and a good many other things for that feat, in one of

his speeches declared that when this government was originally

established, nobody expected that the institution of slavery would last

until this day. That was but the opinion of one man, but it is such an

opinion as we can never get from Judge Douglas or anybody in favour of

slavery in the North at all. You can sometimes get it from a Southern

man. He said at the same time that the framers of our government did not

have the knowledge that experience has taught us--that experience and

the invention of the cotton gin have taught us that the perpetuation of

slavery is a necessity. He insisted therefore upon its being changed

from the basis upon which the fathers of the government left it to the

basis of perpetuation and nationalization.

I insist that this is the difference between Judge Douglas and

myself--that Judge Douglas is helping the change along. I insist upon

this government being placed where our fathers originally placed it.

... When he asks me why we cannot get along with it [slavery] in the

attitude where our fathers placed it, he had better clear up the

evidences that he has himself changed it from that basis; that he has

himself been chiefly instrumental in changing the policy of the fathers.

Any one who will read his speech of the twenty-second of March last,

will see that he there makes an open confession, showing that he set

about fixing the institution upon an altogether different set of

principles....

Now, fellow-citizens, in regard to this matter about a contract between

myself and Judge Trumbull, and myself and all that long portion of Judge

Douglas's speech on this subject. I wish simply to say, what I have said

to him before, that he cannot know whether it is true or not, and I do

know that there is not a word of truth in it. And I have told him so

before. I don't want any harsh language indulged in, but I do not know

how to deal with this persistent insisting on a story that I know to be

utterly without truth. It used to be the fashion amongst men that when a

charge was made, some sort of proof was brought forward to establish it,

and if no proof was found to exist, it was dropped. I don't know how to

meet this kind of an argument. I don't want to have a fight with Judge

Douglas, and I have no way of making an argument up into the consistency

of a corn-cob and stopping his mouth with it. All I can do is

good-humouredly to say, that from the beginning to the end of all that

story about a bargain between Judge Trumbull and myself, there is not a

word of truth in it....

When that compromise [of 1850] was made, it did not repeal the old

Missouri Compromise. It left a region of United States territory half as

large as the present territory of the United States, north of the line

of 36° 30', in which slavery was prohibited by act of Congress. This

compromise did not repeal that one. It did not affect nor propose to

repeal it. But at last it became Judge Douglas's duty, as he thought

(and I find no fault with him), as chairman of the Committee on

Territories, to bring in a bill for the organization of a territorial

government--first of one, then of two Territories north of that line.

When he did so, it ended in his inserting a provision substantially

repealing the Missouri Compromise. That was because the Compromise of

1850 had not repealed it. And now I ask why he could not have left that

compromise alone? We were quiet from the agitation of the slavery

question. We were making no fuss about it. All had acquiesced in the

compromise measures of 1850. We never had been seriously disturbed by

any Abolition agitation before that period.... I close this part of the

discussion on my part by asking him the question again, Why, when we had

peace under the Missouri Compromise, could you not have let it alone?

* * * * *

He tries to persuade us that there must be a variety in the different

institutions of the States of the Union; that that variety necessarily

proceeds from the variety of soil, climate, of the face of the country,

and the difference of the natural features of the States. I agree to all

that. Have these very matters ever produced any difficulty amongst us?

Not at all. Have we ever had any quarrel over the fact that they have

laws in Louisiana designed to regulate the commerce that springs from

the production of sugar, or because we have a different class relative

to the production of flour in this State? Have they produced any

differences? Not at all. They are the very cements of this Union. They

don't make the house a house divided against itself. They are the props

that hold up the house and sustain the Union.

But has it been so with this element of slavery? Have we not always had

quarrels and difficulties over it? And when will we cease to have

quarrels over it? Like causes produce like effects. It is worth while to

observe that we have generally had comparative peace upon the slavery

question, and that there has been no cause for alarm until it was

excited by the effort to spread it into new territory. Whenever it has

been limited to its present bounds, and there has been no effort to

spread it, there has been peace. All the trouble and convulsion has

proceeded from efforts to spread it over more territory. It was thus at

the date of the Missouri Compromise. It was so again with the annexation

of Texas; so with the territory acquired by the Mexican War; and it is

so now. Whenever there has been an effort to spread it, there has been

agitation and resistance. Now, I appeal to this audience (very few of

whom are my political friends), as rational men, whether we have reason

to expect that the agitation in regard to this subject will cease while

the causes that tend to reproduce agitation are actively at work? Will

not the same cause that produced agitation in 1820, when the Missouri

Compromise was formed,--that which produced the agitation upon the

annexation of Texas, and at other times,--work out the same results

always? Do you think that the nature of man will be changed; that the

same causes that produced agitation at one time will not have the same

effect at another?

This has been the result so far as my observation of the slavery

question and my reading in history extend. What right have we then to

hope that the trouble will cease, that the agitation will come to an

end, until it shall either be placed back where it originally stood, and

where the fathers originally placed it, or, on the other hand, until it

shall entirely master all opposition? This is the view I entertain, and

this is the reason why I entertained it, as Judge Douglas has read from

my Springfield speech.

... At Freeport I answered several interrogatories that had been

propounded to me by Judge Douglas at the Ottawa meeting.... At the same

time I propounded four interrogatories to him, claiming it as a right

that he should answer as many for me as I did for him, and I would

reserve myself for a future instalment when I got them ready. The Judge,

in answering me upon that occasion, put in what I suppose he intends as

answers to all four of my interrogatories. The first one of these I

have before me, and it is in these words:

_Question 1._ If the people of Kansas shall by means entirely

unobjectionable in all other respects, adopt a State constitution

and ask admission into the Union under it, before they have the

requisite number of inhabitants according to the English bill--some

93,000--will you vote to admit them?

As I read the Judge's answer in the newspaper, and as I remember it as

pronounced at the time, he does not give any answer which is equivalent

to yes or no,--I will or I won't. He answers at very considerable

length, rather quarrelling with me for asking the question, and

insisting that Judge Trumbull had done something that I ought to say

something about; and finally, getting out such statements as induce me

to infer that he means to be understood, he will, in that supposed case,

vote for the admission of Kansas. I only bring this forward now, for the

purpose of saying that, if he chooses to put a different construction

upon his answer, he may do it. But if he does not, I shall from this

time forward assume that he will vote for the admission of Kansas in

disregard of the English bill. He has the right to remove any

misunderstanding I may have. I only mention it now, that I may hereafter

assume this to have been the true construction of his answer, if he does

not now choose to correct me.

The second interrogatory I propounded to him was this:

_Question 2._ Can the people of a United States Territory in any

lawful way, against the wish of any citizen of the United States,

exclude slavery from its limits prior to the formation of a State

constitution?

To this Judge Douglas answered that they can lawfully exclude slavery

from the Territory prior to the formation of a constitution. He goes

on to tell us how it can be done. As I understand him, he holds that

it can be done by the territorial legislature refusing to make any

enactments for the protection of slavery in the Territory, and

especially by adopting unfriendly legislation to it. For the sake of

clearness, I state it again: that they can exclude slavery from the

Territory,--first, by withholding what he assumes to be an indispensable

assistance to it in the way of legislation; and second, by unfriendly

legislation. If I rightly understand him, I wish to ask your attention

for a while to his position.

In the first place, the Supreme Court of the United States has decided

that any congressional prohibition of slavery in the Territories is

unconstitutional: they have reached this proposition as a conclusion

from their former proposition that the Constitution of the United States

expressly recognizes property in slaves; and from that other

constitutional provision that no person shall be deprived of property

without due process of law. Hence they reach the conclusion that as the

Constitution of the United States expressly recognizes property in

slaves, and prohibits any person from being deprived of property without

due process of law, to pass an act of Congress by which a man who owned

a slave on one side of a line would be deprived of him if he took him on

the other side, is depriving him of that property without due process of

law. That I understand to be the decision of the Supreme Court. I

understand also that Judge Douglas adheres most firmly to that decision;

and the difficulty is, how is it possible for any power to exclude

slavery from the Territory unless in violation of that decision? That is

the difficulty.

In the Senate of the United States, in 1856, Judge Trumbull in a speech,

substantially if not directly, put the same interrogatory to Judge

Douglas, as to whether the people of a Territory had the lawful power to

exclude slavery prior to the formation of a constitution? Judge Douglas

then answered at considerable length, and his answer will be found in

the "Congressional Globe," under date of June 9, 1856. The Judge said

that whether the people could exclude slavery prior to the formation of

a constitution or not, was a question to be decided by the Supreme

Court. He put that proposition, as will be seen by the "Congressional

Globe," in a variety of forms, all running to the same thing in

substance,--that it was a question for the Supreme Court. I maintain

that when he says, after the Supreme Court has decided the question,

that the people may yet exclude slavery by any means whatever, he does

virtually say that it is not a question for the Supreme Court. He shifts

his ground. I appeal to you whether he did not say it was a question for

the Supreme Court? Has not the Supreme Court decided that question? When

he now says that the people may exclude slavery, does he not make it a

question for the people? Does he not virtually shift his ground and say

that it is not a question for the court, but for the people? This is a

very simple proposition,--a very plain and naked one. It seems to me

that there is no difficulty in deciding it. In a variety of ways he said

that it was a question for the Supreme Court. He did not stop then to

tell us that, whatever the Supreme Court decides, the people can by

withholding necessary "police regulations" keep slavery out. He did not

make any such answer. I submit to you now, whether the new state of the

case has not induced the Judge to sheer away from his original ground?

Would not this be the impression of every fair-minded man?

I hold that the proposition that slavery cannot enter a new country

without police regulations is historically false. It is not true at all.

I hold that the history of this country shows that the institution of

slavery was originally planted upon this continent without these "police

regulations" which the Judge now thinks necessary for the actual

establishment of it. Not only so, but is there not another fact,--how

came this Dred Scott decision to be made? It was made upon the case of a

negro being taken and actually held in slavery in Minnesota Territory,

claiming his freedom because the act of Congress prohibited his being so

held there. Will the Judge pretend that Dred Scott was not held there

without police regulations? There is at least one matter of record as to

his having been held in slavery in the Territory, not only without

police regulations, but in the teeth of congressional legislation

supposed to be valid at the time. This shows that there is vigour enough

in slavery to plant itself in a new country, even against unfriendly

legislation. It takes not only law, but the enforcement of law to keep

it out. That is the history of this country upon the subject.

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