* New York Journal, 1898. An Interview.
_Question_. Have you followed the controversy, or rather, the interest
manifested in the letters to the _Journal_ which have followed your
lecture of Sunday, and what do you think of them?
_Answer._ I have read the letters and reports that have been published
in the _Journal_. Some of them seem to be very sincere, some not quite
honest, and some a little of both.
The Rev. Robert S. MacArthur takes the ground that very many Christians
do not believe in a personal devil, but are still Christians. He states
that they hold that the references in the New Testament to the devil
are simply to personifications of evil, and do not apply to any personal
existence. He says that he could give the names of a number of pastors
who hold such views. He does not state what his view is. Consequently, I
do not know whether he is a believer in a personal devil or not.
The statement that the references in the New Testament to a devil
are simply to personifications of evil, not applying to any personal
existence, seems to me utterly absurd.
The references to devils in the New Testament are certainly as good and
satisfactory as the references to angels. Now, are the angels referred
to in the New Testament simply personifications of good, and are there
no such personal existences? If devils are only personifications of
evil, how is it that these personifications of evil could hold arguments
with Jesus Christ? How could they talk back? How could they publicly
acknowledge the divinity of Christ? As a matter of fact, the best
evidences of Christ's divinity in the New Testament are the declarations
of devils. These devils were supposed to be acquainted with supernatural
things, and consequently knew a God when they saw one, whereas the
average Jew, not having been a citizen of the celestial world, was
unable to recognize a deity when he met him.
Now, these personifications of evil, as Dr. Mac-Arthur calls them, were
of various kinds. Some of them were dumb, while others could talk, and
Christ said, speaking of the dumb devils, that they were very difficult
to expel from the bodies of men; that it required fasting and prayer to
get them out. Now, did Christ mean that these dumb devils did not exist?
That they were only "personifications of evil"?
Now, we are also told in the New Testament that Christ was tempted
by the devil; that is, by a "personification of evil," and that this
personification took him to the pinnacle of the temple and tried to
induce him to jump off. Now, where did this personification of evil come
from? Was it an actual existence? Dr. MacArthur says that it may not
have been. Then it did not come from the outside of Christ. If it
existed it came from the inside of Christ, so that, according to
MacArthur, Christ was the creator of his own devil.
I do not know that I have a right to say that this is Dr. MacArthur's
opinion, as he has wisely refrained from giving his opinion. I hope some
time he will tell us whether he really believes in a devil or not, or
whether he thinks all allusions and references to devils in the New
Testament can be explained away by calling the devils "personifications
of evil." Then, of course, he will tell us whether it was a
"personification of evil" that offered Christ all the kingdoms of the
world, and whether Christ expelled seven "personifications of evil" from
Mary Magdalene, and how did they come to count these "personifications
of evil"? If the devils, after all, are only "personifications of evil,"
then, of course, they cannot be numbered. They are all one. There may
be different manifestations, but, in fact, there can be but one, and yet
Mary Magdalene had seven.
Dr. MacArthur states that I put up a man of straw, and then vigorously
beat him down. Now, the question is, do I attack a man of straw? I take
it for granted that Christians to some extent, at least, believe in
their creeds. I suppose they regard the Bible as the inspired word
of God; that they believe in the fall of man, in the atonement, in
salvation by faith, in the resurrection and ascension of Christ. I
take it for granted that they believe these things. Of course, the only
evidence I have is what they say. Possibly that cannot be depended upon.
They may be dealing only in the "personification of truth."
When I charge the orthodox Christians with believing these things, I am
told that I am far behind the religious thinking of the hour, but after
all, this "man of straw" is quite powerful. Prof. Briggs attacked this
"man of straw," and the straw man turned on him and put him out. A
preacher by the name of Smith, a teacher in some seminary out in Ohio,
challenged this "man of straw," and the straw man put him out.
Both these reverend gentlemen were defeated by the straw man, and if the
Rev. Dr. MacArthur will explain to his congregation, I mean only explain
what he calls the "religious thinking of the hour," the "straw man" will
put him out too.
Dr. MacArthur finds fault with me because I put into the minds of
representative thinkers of to-day the opinions of medieval monks, which
leading religious teachers long ago discarded. Will Dr. MacArthur have
the goodness to point out one opinion that I have put into the minds
of representative thinkers--that is, of orthodox thinkers--that any
orthodox religious teacher of to-day has discarded? Will he have the
kindness to give just one?
In my lecture on "Superstition" I did say that to deny the existence
of evil spirits, or to deny the existence of the devil, is to deny the
truth of the New Testament; and that to deny the existence of these imps
of darkness is to contradict the words of Jesus Christ. I did say that
if we give up the belief in devils we must give up the inspiration of
the Old and New Testaments, and we must give up the divinity of Christ.
Upon that declaration I stand, because if devils do not exist, then
Jesus Christ was mistaken, or we have not in the New Testament a true
account of what he said and of what he pretended to do. If the New
Testament gives a true account of his words and pretended actions, then
he did claim to cast out devils. That was his principal business. That
was his certificate of divinity, casting out devils. That authenticated
his mission and proved that he was superior to the hosts of darkness.
Now, take the devil out of the New Testament, and you also take the
veracity of Christ; with that veracity you take the divinity; with that
divinity you take the atonement, and when you take the atonement, the
great fabric known as Christianity becomes a shapeless ruin.
Now, let Dr. Mac Arthur answer this, and answer it not like a minister,
but like a man. Ministers are unconsciously a little unfair. They have
a little tendency to what might be called a natural crook. They become
spiritual when they ought to be candid. They become a little ingenious
and pious when they ought to be frank; and when really driven into
a corner, they clasp their hands, they look upward, and they cry
"_Blasphemy!_" I do not mean by this that they are dishonest. I simply
mean that they are illogical.
Dr. MacArthur tells us also that Spain is not a representative of
progressive religious teachers. I admit that. There are no progressive
religious teachers in Spain, and right here let me make a remark. If
religion rests on an inspired revelation, it is incapable of progress.
It may be said that year after year we get to understand it better, but
if it is not understood when given, why is it called a "revelation"?
There is no progress in the multiplication table. Some men are better
mathematicians than others, but the old multiplication table remains the
same. So there can be no progress in a revelation from God.
Now, Spain--and that is the great mistake, the great misfortune--has
remained orthodox. That is to say, the Spaniards have been true to
their superstition. Of course the Rev. Dr. MacArthur will not admit that
Catholicism is Christianity, and I suppose that the pope would hardly
admit that a Baptist is a very successful Christian. The trouble with
Spain is, and the trouble with the Baptist Church is, that neither of
them has progressed to any great extent.
Now, in my judgment, what is called religion must grow better as man
grows better, simply because it was produced by man and the better man
is, the nearer civilized he is, the better, the nearer civilized,
will be what he calls his religion; and if the Baptist religion has
progressed, it is a demonstration that it was not originally founded on
a revelation from God.
In my lecture I stated that we had no right to make any distinction
between the actions of infinite wisdom and goodness, and that if God
created and governs this world we ought to thank him, if we thanked him
at all, for all that happens; that we should thank him just as heartily
for famine and cyclone as for sunshine and harvest, and that if
President McKinley thanked God for the victory at Santiago, he also
should have thanked him for sending the yellow fever.
I stand by these words. A finite being has no right to make any
distinction between the actions of the infinitely good and wise. If God
governs this world, then everything that happens is the very best that
could happen. When A murders B, the best thing that could happen to A is
to be a murderer and the best thing that could have happened to B was
to be murdered. There is no escape from this if the world is governed by
infinite wisdom and goodness.
It will not do to try and dodge by saying that man is free. This God who
made man and made him free knew exactly how he would use his freedom,
and consequently this God cannot escape the responsibility for the
actions of men. He made them. He knew exactly what they would do. He is
responsible.
If I could turn a piece of wood into a human being, and I knew that he
would murder a man, who is the real murderer? But if Dr. MacArthur would
think as much as he preaches, he would come much nearer agreeing with
me.
The Rev. Dr. J. Lewis Parks is very sorry that he cannot discuss
Ingersoll's address, because to do so would be dignifying Ingersoll. Of
course I deeply regret the refusal of Dr. J. Lewis Parks to discuss the
address. I dislike to be compelled to go to the end of my life without
being dignified. At the same time I will forgive the Rev. Dr. J. Lewis
Parks for not answering me, because I know that he cannot.
The Rev. Dr. Moldehnke, whose name seems chiefly made of consonants,
denounces me as a scoffer and as illogical, and says that Christianity
is not founded upon the devil, but upon Christ. He further says that
we do not believe in such a thing as a devil in human form, but we know
that there is evil, and that evil we call the devil. He hides his head
under the same leaf with Dr. MacArthur by calling the devil evil.
Now, is this gentleman willing to say that all the allusions to the
devil in the Old and New Testaments can be harmonized with the idea that
the devil is simply a personification of evil? Can he say this and say
it honestly?
But the Rev. Dr. Moldehnke, I think, seems to be consistent; seems to go
along with the logic of his creed. He says that the yellow fever, if it
visited our soldiers, came from God, and that we should thank God for
it. He does not say the soldiers should thank God for it, or that those
who had it should thank God for it, but that we should thank God for it,
and there is this wonderful thing about Christianity. It enables us
to bear with great fortitude, with a kind of sublime patience, the
misfortunes of others.
He says that this yellow fever works out God's purposes. Of course I am
not as well acquainted with the Deity as the Rev. Moldehnke appears to
be. I have not the faintest idea of what God's purposes are. He works,
even according to his messengers, in such a mysterious way, that with
the little reason I have I find it impossible to follow him. Why God
should have any purpose that could be worked out with yellow fever, or
cholera, or why he should ever ask the assistance of tapeworms, or go in
partnership with cancers, or take in the plague as an assistant, I have
never been able to understand. I do not pretend to know. I admit my
ignorance, and after all, the Rev. Dr. Moldehnke may be right. It may be
that everything that happens is for the best. At the same time, I do not
believe it.
There is a little old story on this subject that throws some light on
the workings of the average orthodox mind.
One morning the son of an old farmer came in and said to his father,
"One of the ewe lambs is dead."
"Well," said the father; "that is all for the best. Twins never do very
well, any how."
The next morning the son reported the death of the other lamb, and the
old man said, "Well, that is all for the best; the old ewe will have
more wool."