The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John
J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley
J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.
Mr. McCLOY. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under
affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing.
Mr. JENNER. We had concluded, if you recall, the 15-day period in May
that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine.
Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or
whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when
you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some
kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any luggage of any character?
Mrs. PAINE. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it
specifically.
Mr. JENNER. You do not?
Mrs. PAINE. I am just guessing.
Mr. JENNER. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you
arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what
was that address on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. 4907.
Mr. JENNER. That was 4907 rather than 4905.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least
of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted
any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907?
Would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least
the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New
Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Now, shall I describe this?
Mr. JENNER. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram
the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had
the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you
might follow her testimony?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mrs. PAINE. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west
and up and down are north and south?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house
and there was room enough----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now
to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline.
Mrs. PAINE. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the
Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car.
Mr. JENNER. Have you marked the courtyard with that word?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L"
shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right?
Mrs. PAINE. This is a square space cut by a walk.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. This was a low fence.
Mr. JENNER. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what
is this to which you have pointed--you have written something across it?
Mrs. PAINE. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low
metal picket fence.
Mr. JENNER. That you have so designated?
Mrs. PAINE. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.
Mrs. PAINE. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk,
steps----
Mr. JENNER. Which you have also marked "walk"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Steps going up.
Mr. JENNER. Which you have likewise so marked?
Mrs. PAINE. To a screened porch.
Mr. JENNER. Likewise so marked?
Mrs. PAINE. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living
room.
Mr. JENNER. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use
those names and those designations as you testify?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or
oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open
space, was it, it was not roofed?
Mrs. PAINE. It was fully open.
Mr. JENNER. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward
the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square?
Mrs. PAINE. I will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a
driveway.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a
dwelling?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a dwelling.
Mr. JENNER. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on
the opposite side of the street?
Mrs. PAINE. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings?
Mrs. PAINE. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered
from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family
dwelling.
Mr. JENNER. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is
concerned on the east it was--there was a walk?
Mrs. PAINE. A building.
Mr. JENNER. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there
was a walk?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch
and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling
house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in
the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who
just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south
side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the
east of the courtyard?
Mrs. PAINE. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a
clutch of small boys.
Mr. JENNER. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small
children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a reasonably busy street?
Mrs. PAINE. Very busy street.
Mr. JENNER. What were the days of the week that you were there when you
returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was
there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days
you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a
reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and
about the neighborhood?
Mrs. PAINE. A good many small children and adults.
Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about
which you will testify in a few moments?
Mrs. PAINE. That was certainly true in September.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No.
403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked.
Mr. McCLOY. So received.
(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403
for identification, was received in evidence.)
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907
Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house?
Mrs. PAINE. It was all on the ground floor.
Mr. JENNER. It was a one-story house, one story high?
Mrs. PAINE. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories
to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level.
Mr. JENNER. And that was the ground level?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr.
Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with
particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise
opened up on Magazine Street, did it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but
the door opened up toward Magazine.
Mr. JENNER. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine
Street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say,
dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that
person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east?
Mrs. PAINE. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street. A
small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen,
up to the----
Mr. JENNER. That is to the east?
Mrs. PAINE. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know
it is screened on both sides.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind
of shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there,
down, but there may have been some means of----
Mr. JENNER. Lattice shade?
Mrs. PAINE. Putting down a lattice blind.
Mr. JENNER. A blind or something?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did
you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your
two trips to be on the screen porch?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And looking out?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And was there any impediment to your view?
Mrs. PAINE. No, I could see the street very well.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to
be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch
area.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you
see persons behind the screen?
Mrs. PAINE. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen.
Mr. JENNER. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you
mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the
sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in?
Mrs. PAINE. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just
passing by you would not have been apt to see them.
Mr. JENNER. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and
correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went
over all that, do you recall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand
to assist you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Would you mind taking that out, please?
You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent
to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in
February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note?
Mrs. PAINE. I did; and I have that response.
Mr. JENNER. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission
Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A.
Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the
envelope?
(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits
Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by
mail?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. I am now.
Mr. JENNER. Is that--do you identify the handwriting in that document
404?
Mrs. PAINE. That is her handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. That is hers.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you
received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And that is her response to your note?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so
marked.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for
identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received
in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Now, that is in what language?
Mrs. PAINE. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Have you made a translation of that note?
Mrs. PAINE. I have.
Mr. JENNER. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited
to me last night which we have marked as No. 1?
Mrs. PAINE. It is.
Mr. JENNER. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I
read the translation in evidence or may we have it----
Mr. McCLOY. It is a short note?
Mr. JENNER. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however,
and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into
the record during the noon recess or something of that character.
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. JENNER. Is that acceptable.
Now, did you thereafter--you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in
response to that note of yours, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. No. Let's see--I don't recall whether I did or not or
whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested.
Mr. JENNER. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman,
because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of
it.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2.
Would you locate that for me on your summary?
Mrs. PAINE. I have it.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the second page?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. In my handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that
you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald.
Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a
translation of that note?
Mrs. PAINE. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand
your question.
Mr. JENNER. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the
document? Is that the center of the page on page 2?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission
Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for
identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you
completed it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not
what I sent.
Mr. JENNER. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to
Marina Oswald, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. But it does represent your present best recollection of the
note as you transmitted it to her?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my
recollection of when I think it was written?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was written in March and referred to--it closes,
"Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which
is what appears here with the name Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say
"appears here" you meant Exhibit 401?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence the original document which has now
been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405
for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I will read the translation in the record during the noon
recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs.
Oswald, did you not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission
Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for
identification.)
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft
retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation of that letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as
it was when you completed it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that document transcribed on your notes?
Mrs. PAINE. That is at the top of page 2.
Mr. JENNER. That is what we call No. 3, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. And dated March 26.
Mr. JENNER. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified
yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on
April 2.
Mrs. PAINE. It appears--the following invitation is a full explanation
of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was
to say that Michael would come and pick them up.
Mr. JENNER. This was confirmation of your original invitation?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up.
Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit
No. 406.
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406
for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to
your invitation to have her and her husband join you?
Mrs. PAINE. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that
invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine.
Mr. JENNER. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407.
Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you made--is it in the same condition now as it was
when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to
it.
Mr. JENNER. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the
time you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand
the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words.
Mr. JENNER. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine.
Did you also--are there some additions in your handwriting on the first
page of the note?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a
dictionary.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you do that?
Mrs. PAINE. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words.
I had to look them up.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command
of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the
total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote
on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in
interpreting it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a fair statement.
Mr. JENNER. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by
you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of
your effort to interpret it?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in
the same condition now as it was when you received it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when
you placed those notes on it?
In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the
document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you
were attempting to interpret it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and
then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so
that some of these notes were done a week ago.
Mr. JENNER. That is what I was getting at.
Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that
you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when
you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week
ago, and indicate the pages.
Mrs. PAINE. I can easily answer that.
There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline
on the inside.
Mr. JENNER. Right-hand inside page?
Mrs. PAINE. Right-hand side.
Mr. JENNER. Is it merely an underlining?
Mrs. PAINE. Underline and a question mark.
Mr. JENNER. And would you interpret that for us, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the
word to be "if."
Mr. JENNER. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to
translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you
couldn't quite figure it out?
Mrs. PAINE. And then later realized what it was.
Mr. JENNER. As being the word "if"?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the
condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed
notations on it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it is.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that
letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. And that appears in your notes at page what?
Mrs. PAINE. The first page at the bottom.
Mr. JENNER. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct?