Mr. JENNER. And how it arose.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back
to have the baby here--although by no means a definite--definitely
planned.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. I am a little confused. When you say coming back
to have the baby here----
Mrs. PAINE. It was assumed she would go to New Orleans when he called,
but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to Dallas. I
said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate,
to come here to have the baby.
Mr. DULLES. That was to your house, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after
the baby's birth, where I could look after June while she was in the
hospital and later. June didn't take readily to strangers. She did
like me and was comfortable with me, so I felt she might want to have
someone she knew and got along with.
Mr. JENNER. But in this connection, was there a discussion between
you and Marina Oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to
Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe she again said that he was after her to
return.
Mr. JENNER. Well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would
be no.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. As far as I recall, it came up only once in
our discussions prior to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Which you have already related?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion during the 15-day period on the
subject of her acquiring greater facility with the English language?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And his attitude toward that?
Mrs. PAINE. His attitude had already been discussed, and I don't
believe it was particularly discussed further. But she did indicate
that she was going to try to learn some anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Despite that?
Mrs. PAINE. I judged so. I asked if she had a book written in Russian
entitled "The Self Teacher in the English Language." She did not.
And I ordered it. And I think I gave it to her even then. I am quite
certain of that. This turned out to be not much help. At least she was
interested in trying to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of the subject of it being
disclosed to the Russian emigré group that she was pregnant.
Mrs. PAINE. No; she continued to ask me not to mention that. We did,
however, meet someone in the Russian emigré group in Fort Worth after
she had the first day put on maternity clothes--and so she was sorry
that that meeting had occurred. She judged now people would know.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did anything else occur in the way of
discussions during that 15-day period on the subject of life in Russia,
his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition,
her reaction to America?
Mrs. PAINE. She discussed her reaction to America. She was very
impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. She
thought the quality was better here than in Russia. Then there was more
of that later in October.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, in October. Have we pretty well
exhausted this 15-day interim period, then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? During
this 15-day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit
you at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean particularly to see her? I am sure there are
people coming and going at my house. There must have been. For
instance, May 1, Mary--this is again Miss Mary referred to previously,
a babysitter, "8:15. War and Peace." Mary came and stayed with my
children, and Marina and June and I went to see War and Peace. Miss
Mary recalls that meeting.
Mr. JENNER. Is that a play or the movie?
Mrs. PAINE. This is the movie, War and Peace, in English. But, of
course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "Ed tennis
confirm." I went over to play tennis. On the fourth of May, Craig's
children--they came here.
Representative FORD. Into your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Craig?
Mrs. PAINE. Craig is this young German woman who didn't want to buy
guns for her children either, that I mentioned. And we exchanged
children often.
Mr. JENNER. Does she speak Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. No; German only, and English. And, mow the lawn, it says
on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn.
And May 9 in the morning, "Ilse"--means Mrs. Craig again--kept my
children while I went at 8:10 to Saint Marks for an interview. So there
was a normal flow. And I told my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, who
figures later, that Marina was there over the weekend, that I wouldn't
be there, and introduced them, so Marina could go to Mrs. Roberts and
make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roberts is your next door neighbor?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then your response to Representative Ford's question is
that----
Mrs. PAINE. A normal flow to my house.
Mr. JENNER. But there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her
from the Russian emigré group, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Were there any telephone calls to her from anybody
of this group, or any other group?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to
call. But that is all.
Mr. DULLES. She probably could not operate the telephone.
Mrs. PAINE. She could. That was the first I knew. I wasn't certain. But
she knew how to operate the telephone.
Mr. JENNER. I am pleased you raised that, sir. She could dial. Did you
have the dial system in effect at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Way out in Irving; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And she could dial the number if she wished?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she knew how to do that.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she
was in touch with any Soviet officials at all, the consul general? Did
she ever talk of going to the Soviet Embassy or the Soviet Consulate in
regard to her problems?
Mrs. PAINE. No. The only thing ever mentioned was this that I have
already mentioned for the record--that she had written to the Soviet
Embassy inquiring about papers to go back.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you think she did that on her own initiative?
Mrs. PAINE. No; because he was insisting.
Mr. DULLES. We have a copy of that letter, have we not?
Mr. McCLOY. Did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the
Soviet Union?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she liked America better.
Mr. McCLOY. And she rather liked the conditions here better than she
had experienced them in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. And that you think was her fundamental motivation for
staying here?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Wanting to stay here? When you were in contact with her at
all did any--when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified
characters or people that called to see her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no one at all that called to see her.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any telephone calls received during that period
when you answered the phone that someone asked for Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Only that from Lee on the night.
Mr. JENNER. Only from Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Only from Lee.
Mr. JENNER. No other calls to her?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And no other callers--that is persons who came to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Mr. McCLOY. What was the name of these--De Mohrenschildts. Did they
communicate with her when she was with you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; my impression is they were already out of the country.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any mail received or delivered to your home
during this period for her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so. It is possible that Lee wrote once. I
think it is more likely she wrote him.
Mr. JENNER. In the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to
your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see any.
Mr. JENNER. You did not see any?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with
Lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the Soviet
system? Did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy?
Mrs. PAINE. I once listened to such a debate between Lee and my
husband, in October.
Mr. DULLES. You kept out of the debate?
Mrs. PAINE. I tried hard. I felt it was not going anywhere, and that
he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was
no point to arguing with him. I disagreed with him quite strongly,
and I didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to
change--certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views.
He, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of
the state, intent upon blinding the people. I thought his thinking
was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts,
anything contradictory to his own view.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he become intemperate in argument?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. McCLOY. But in the course of his discussions with your husband, did
he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor----
Mrs. PAINE. Michael tells me he did. I didn't hear that particular
discussion.
Representative FORD. In response to Mr. McCloy, you told of this
argument that your husband and Lee Oswald had. You said it was October.
This is October 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any more questions? We are going to resume in
the morning at 9 o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be here?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I will be here.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. I
will be here, though.
Mr. DULLES. I have no questions.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you want to close?
Mr. JENNER. I would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your
convenience.
Mr. McCLOY. All right. We will excuse you. Thank you for your
cooperation.
(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Thursday, March 19, 1964_