Mr. PAINE. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know
how well she knew her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that
subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some
strain between Marina and Ruth?
Mr. PAINE. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned
Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that
were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part,
and so we talked about that thing.
Mr. DULLES. When did she learn that?
Mr. PAINE. This was in the newspaper report.
Mr. DULLES. She only learned it through the newspaper?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating
circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who
she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps--we
believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps,
excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series
of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters,
trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina
was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally
respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them.
So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had
another--some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at
ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw
only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina.
Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and
Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she
could sign her checks, checks or gifts.
So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not
knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having
conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right
beside her if she wanted to call.
Mr. DULLES. How did she receive these checks?
Mr. PAINE. I guess Ruth--some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to
her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. PAINE. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had
offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth
or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be
a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and
anxiety.
Mr. DULLES. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert
Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. We only met him for the first time on the night of the
assassination. We both liked him at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't
covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know
about in connection with this assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe there is anything else that I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles?
Mr. DULLES. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place
as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination.
Were you in the police station?
Mr. PAINE. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or
9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you?
Mr. PAINE. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I
changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not
know what he would ask me, so I did not see him.
Mr. DULLES. You did not see him?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did your wife see him?
Mr. PAINE. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning
hoping to see him.
Mr. DULLES. There were no conversations that took place that evening
that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know?
Mr. PAINE. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I
think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't
receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody
there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation,
this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.
Mr. DULLES. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any
conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this
apparent coolness?
Mr. PAINE. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some
indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine.
Mr. DULLES. You think money considerations had anything to do with this?
Mr. PAINE. I think quite a lot--it will be borne out, between Ruth and
Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think
Thorne----
Mr. DULLES. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other
people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager
or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations
that were coming in to Marina.
Mr. PAINE. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was
advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the
money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she
thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to
Marina in regard to Ruth.
Mr. DULLES. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine.
Mr. PAINE. Thank you, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)