Mr. PAINE. This mark is still here.
Representative FORD. This is the mark or can you identify that mark
that you placed on this map?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks
reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map.
Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map.
Mr. LIEBELER. In your statement referring to one side of the map
you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort
Worth-Dallas area, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on
this side of the map?
Mr. PAINE. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having
found. I don't remember finding another one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember putting that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE. I remember putting--I think I put this kind of mark on more
than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to
all the arteries and what not that lead to various places.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do think then it is probable that you did place the
mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving,
Tex.; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into
possession of this map?
Mr. PAINE. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a
map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she
could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him
when he was searching for a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife
about the map before the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I
don't believe we discussed it at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area
of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll
Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of
placing that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on
the map.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it
likely that you placed that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking
for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas
that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so
they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short
of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near
that address.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't
know exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to?
Mr. PAINE. I will take your word for that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that it is?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't
looked into it and didn't check it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the
Ridgway company is in this intersection or not?
Mr. PAINE. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about
that area. I don't remember the names of the roads.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed
the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll
and San Jacinto Streets?
Mr. PAINE. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map
of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I
would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it
was and know in my mind where I wanted to go.
Mr. DULLES. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark
that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred,
the area map?
Mr. PAINE. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side
of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house.
So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather
than--generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to
go and I go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to
Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and
started looking for work.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking
to find this reproduction place; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury,
and I ask you if you put that mark on the map?
Mr. PAINE. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different
from the other mark, and it is--if I were to make a mark that is more
the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where
I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and
it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating
it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property.
Mr. DULLES. Is there a mark there at that place where you were
interested in buying property?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't
have that map at that time. Also I was not living--I would guess for
a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that
August date was because I hadn't been living--I had been living in this
apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the
same map that Ruth had around her house.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any
marks on that map other than the one indicating your home?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was
placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in
this locating of property for several years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the
type that you usually make?
Mr. PAINE. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I
might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the
others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which
are not the kind I would make.
Mr. LIEBELER. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other
marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map
other than the ones we have discussed?
Mr. PAINE. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria
there is not exactly at the right spot.
Mr. LIEBELER. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks
which you think you might have put on the map?
Mr. PAINE. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he
having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, I guess
it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can
remember there that I might have put on there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your
meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of
the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or
not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he
would be likely to take the life of any human being?
Mr. PAINE. It was a question we had to consider when we considered
having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he
was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course,
I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping
his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our
arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was
a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense--he didn't display hostility
to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they
were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this
time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He
was only unreasonable the first time I had met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you have this discussion with your wife
concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that
before they came back from New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why
Marina should not come there; is that right?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out
rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and
what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that
rather than worried.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald
was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you
change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis
of his activities and your observation of him during that period?
Mr. PAINE. It was reinforced.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who
would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't--I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and
quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him,
very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was
harmless.
Representative FORD. Was this a different reaction from the one you had
had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance?
Mr. PAINE. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked,
especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a
complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that
I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and
servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping
her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended
me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from
him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to
be separating a family that could get along.
Mr. LIEBELER. This bitterness that you detected following his return
from Mexico, was that a new reaction?
Mr. PAINE. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been
disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. PAINE. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and
making sharp jibes at her.
Mr. DULLES. And that continued awhile?
Mr. PAINE. That only existed that first night in March or April.
Mr. DULLES. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and
weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain
was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed
and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear.
Mr. DULLES. Did you get any information from any source with regard to
the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to
get away from him?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from
delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting
to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip,
and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living
there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave
right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had
expected to leave.
Mr. DULLES. Then your wife took her back, as you recall?
Mr. PAINE. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon,
Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to
Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina
to come back with her right then.
Mr. DULLES. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she
learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different
at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back?
Mr. PAINE. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the
parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In
other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who
was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and
sorry--it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities
in him at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving,
and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved
even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been
prior to that time; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't--I only know two times, at the time in April
when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to
her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in
this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in.
She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that
apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked
the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans,
and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was
uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both
points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so
she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to
like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out
there. She had also been eager to go out.
Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying
he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had
been very happy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specifically consider the question before you let
Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised
the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and
Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and
your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that
time that he was not a violent person; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of
you people?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was
partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to
avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering
Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might
exhibit violence to some other person?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct. We assumed or felt that--if we handled him
with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us.
Mr. DULLES. In the light of subsequent information and developments,
and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any
other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee
Oswald was the assassin of the President?
Mr. PAINE. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it,
my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how
this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It
did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin
can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason
for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful
to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Seemed quite powerful?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from
all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle,
and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking
entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of
the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought
that--he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the
street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time?
Mr. PAINE. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It
seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from
the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be
quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was
confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover--it didn't
quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view
that he did it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at
work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the
cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with you?
Mr. PAINE. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be
with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at
that lunchtime, of all things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we
were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in
extrasensory perception, but we happened to just--we didn't have enough
historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question
and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came
and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking
a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a
transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from
the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the
lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there.
When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was
mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald
worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me,
didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them.
So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a
foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we
were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said
to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know
he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to--a friend or one of the few
friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to--join the
mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I
didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't
going to do it, so I didn't.
I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she
would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was
before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my
knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated
nothing at that time.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not
telephone the FBI?
Mr. PAINE. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank
Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab.
Mr. DULLES. At the lab?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the
conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the
assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside
you and your companion at the time of the conversation?
Mr. PAINE. No, just he and I.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best
you can recall.
Mr. PAINE. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a
newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is,
it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President
coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in
the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had
been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing,
and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that
is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of
anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was
wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and
I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing
or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I
didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with
the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building
mentioned. Now, I did not know that--it never occurred to me, I didn't
realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this
warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in
large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had
supposed, I never put--except when it was mentioned that that was the
building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from,
then I realized I did know where he worked.
Mr. DULLES. You had not been at Irving that previous night?
Mr. PAINE. No, I had not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in
the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think?
Mr. PAINE. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument
against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he
was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not
Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked
in that building, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but
then I realized I didn't know--I knew he worked at that organization. I
didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the
Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting,
and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in
connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see
that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know
all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would
be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it
seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned--in the theater.
The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to
send me home.
Mr. LIEBELER. So then you left for your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You left for home before there had been any public
connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects
here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was
a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a
suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer
Tippit?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had
been involved in the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from
his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to
stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald
after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being
involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that
Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald
was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that
building mentioned in connection with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands--he is a black sheep
in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person
among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one.
I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him
there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas
School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you
deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing
thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state
of mind.
Mr. PAINE. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble
a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making
mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have
all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't
accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional
time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask
me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the
FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time
he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs
on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in
freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken,
they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called
up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was
his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the
individual, and I didn't think--I would not like to, if Lee is falsely
accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is
properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there,
he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my
withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and
having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So
that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think
I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to
the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much
beyond that, could he, could he.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire
to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of
his knowledge of Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of
course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in
the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem.
The CHAIRMAN. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any
other reason?
Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable
to me.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. PAINE. I felt the same one--if you were to pick out somebody in
that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man
who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not
a person with compassion or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that
neighborhood.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there when you arrived?
Mr. PAINE. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was there?
Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you said when you arrived?
Mr. PAINE. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home
as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book
Depository Building?"
Mr. PAINE. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald
mentioned. I did not come home.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon
as you heard that Oswald was involved?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you
went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage.
Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been
previously searched by the police or anyone else?
Mr. PAINE. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this
was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they
went into--I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time
they had gone in.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the
blanket was there in the garage?
Mr. PAINE. I think it was. It was still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said
in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before
you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you
into the garage with the police officers?
Mr. PAINE. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I
stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to
the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up.
In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I
think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the
inside end of the garage.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife was with the police officers further in?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I think she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina Oswald there?
Mr. PAINE. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very
fuzzy recollection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us where the blanket was found?
Mr. PAINE. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still
leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed
at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation,
a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was
in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been,
underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it
back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was
in this?"
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that?
Mr. PAINE. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as
early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been
a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered
when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was
a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had
a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that
blanket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that?
Mr. PAINE. No; but I think--I'm just telling you my impressions here,
very fuzzy impressions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. PAINE. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in
this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a
rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the
rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this
puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else happened?
Mr. PAINE. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket
then even.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the Dallas police officer?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had
one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our
house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a
drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of
the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I
suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he
was in taking those objects.
So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff,
we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had
wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and
everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought
we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that
we would suggest that he should do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house?
Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You
found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations about this
blanket?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar
to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously
identified, particularly Commission 142?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that happened during this period
prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant
or that we ought to know about?
Mr. PAINE. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went.
Marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went with the police?
Mr. PAINE. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back
until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again;
didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think
they went in the garage to take photographs. Several--their possessions
were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and
Irving and FBI, and what not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963,
there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the
numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the
man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who
is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this
before?
Mr. PAINE. I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our
numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened
in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it
was some other part of the country.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time
during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone?
Mr. PAINE. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her
from there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who
was responsible?
Mr. PAINE. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did
not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive in your recollection that you made no
such remark?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of
the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your
wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of
the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we
discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between
them or a disenchantment.
Mr. PAINE. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited
in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about--she explained to me she
couldn't talk about--political or economic subjects. It was a topic on
which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken
of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had
seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's
knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And
Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in
the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with
Ruth herself.
Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite.
Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to
have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends
or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the
opposite.
Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina
staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money.
The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was
happier.