Senator COOPER. May I interrupt you again, I don't want to interrupt
your train too much but I think you had said that during this
conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. And their position and activities, and so forth. In
that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members
of that group?
(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)
Mr. PAINE. It is possible we would have mentioned Welch. I don't think
I would have mentioned Welch, I didn't know anything specifically about
the John Birch Society at the time.
Senator COOPER. Was Walker, he was talking about Walker?
Mr. PAINE. He was the only one whose name was mentioned.
Senator COOPER. Are you sure whether or not Oswald made any comment at
any time during this conversation about Walker?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember, as I say, I remember it very vaguely but
I remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony.
But--and Walker was known, I knew that Walker was known to Lee. And at
least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though
the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it.
I don't think he went on to describe any--it was mostly a ploy on my
part to curry him or make him feel more at ease.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you at that time that both you and
Mr. Oswald had an adverse view of General Walker and did not think
favorably of him, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard of Lee Oswald before you had occasion to go
and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I heard about him as soon as Ruth had been invited to
this party back in February, whenever it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the basis of your wife's interest in the Oswalds
and of your interest in the Oswalds?
Mr. PAINE. Everett Glover invited us knowing that Ruth was studying
Russian and that--asked us if we would be interested in meeting
this--they were presented to us as an American who had defected to
Russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a
Russian wife with him. Would we like to meet these people? Yes, that
sounded interesting.
Mr. DULLES. Was this the Fort Worth group?
Mr. PAINE. No; this is in Dallas.
Mr. DULLES. Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. After this first meeting with Lee Oswald when was the
next time that you saw him?
Mr. PAINE. That would be after he returned, when Marina was living with
us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from
Houston but apparently it had been his trip to Mexico.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what
happened at that time?
Mr. DULLES. Could we have the date of this?
Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been what, early October or late
September of 1963?
Mr. PAINE. I think Marina was there about a week, at least a week
before he came, if she came the 24th of September, which comes to my
mind, it would be in the early part of October. I would normally appear
at the house on Fridays, sometimes occasionally on Sundays, I would
come on Friday evening, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. You were separated from your wife at this time?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you had your own apartment at Arlington, Tex.?
Mr. PAINE. Grand Prairie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Grand Prairie.
Mr. PAINE. I don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out
one from another. The first two meetings, I think were before he found
work, and at first I talked a little bit about the problem of finding
work with him.
Mr. DULLES. These were the first two meetings after the preliminary
meeting?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. While Marina was staying with us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go through your testimony, Mr. Paine and tell us as best
you can recall how many times you saw Oswald after his return from New
Orleans, up until the time of his assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I think I saw him every weekend on Friday; I think he was
there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional.
I would arrive on Tuesday or Wednesdays and, of course, he was not
there and there was Ruth and Marina. I would simply come in on Sunday
when he was generally there.
Also, I quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some
period there, I don't remember, what celebration it is, when Bell did
not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a
Monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me
the date.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be November 8th, 9th and 10th, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. PAINE. That would be correct; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, tell us the circumstances about how Oswald arrived
in Irving upon his return from New Orleans as best you can recall it,
what happened, what was said.
Mr. PAINE. I must not have been there when the phone call arrived but
I think Ruth reported it to me so that Ruth said that Marina was very
pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. I
think I had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and
I observed she was glad to have this call from him but I wasn't there
when he first called, I don't believe.
Mr. DULLES. Was that the call from New Orleans to Irving?
Mr. PAINE. No; that is the call from somewhere in Dallas to Irving
asking if he could come out. I don't know of a call from New Orleans to
Irving.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he subsequently come out to the house in Irving that
weekend?
Mr. PAINE. Then he came out that weekend. I suppose he came out on a
Friday and it was probably before I got over there, I arrived about six.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he was there when you arrived home
that weekend?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I think he was there; yes. I think he
was there because otherwise I would have seen that meeting. I did not
see them first embrace each other.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything to you about where he had been?
Mr. PAINE. No; I thought I knew where he had been. Ruth had told me he
was looking for work in Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ruth had told you that before this date?
Mr. PAINE. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no conversation among any one at that time
about Oswald having been in Mexico.
Mr. PAINE. No; it was a complete surprise to Ruth and myself. When we
saw this letter where he mentioned having been to Mexico, Ruth took it
as an example of his colossal lying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances
surrounding that?
Mr. PAINE. He had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to
a party I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. That is Ruth's typewriter and desk?
Mr. PAINE. Ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter
on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in English. Ruth
had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. Actually
it was there for a day and a half or so. I think he wrote it on
Saturday and we then moved the furniture on Sunday night.
Mr. DULLES. This would be Saturday, November what?
Mr. PAINE. This might be that holiday November. I don't remember for
sure about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Paine, you and I discussed this question yesterday
and I asked you whether you recalled seeing Oswald again after you had
discussed this letter with your wife. What did you tell me?
Mr. PAINE. I thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my
probable reaction that I read that letter and then had I encountered
him again I would have had a different, I would have had questions or
feelings or something in response to this letter and since I didn't
encounter him with those feelings I must not have seen him again.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that would place the date of your seeing this letter
as approximately shortly after the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 103 and ask you if you
ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the
circumstances surrounding that event.
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I saw this letter. I remembered most of the contents.
I apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, I was
reading something else at the time and Ruth handed me this letter and
it took a while--I didn't read it as thoroughly as I could have.
Mr. DULLES. Could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter
just for the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that
Oswald wrote in his own hand. The Commission does have a copy of the
actual letter, and it was a letter to the Russian Embassy, I believe in
Washington.
Mr. DULLES. The Russian Embassy in Washington?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to
Mexico and his political activity on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee. I believe it includes the words "notorious FBI," which is no
longer interested in his political activity in Texas.
Mr. DULLES. Was this letter ever sent?
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was.
Mr. DULLES. There was a letter sent like this? You said you had the
original?
Mr. RANKIN. It is in evidence.
Mr. DULLES. What was sent, a letter like this?
Mr. RANKIN. A redraft.
Mr. DULLES. A redraft.
Mr. PAINE. Typewritten copy.
Mr. LIEBELER. This letter refers to the fact that Oswald had been in
Mexico, does it not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; it tells of his visit to the Cuban Consul and the
Soviet Embassy there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife call that to your attention when she showed
you this letter?
Mr. PAINE. We took it, she took it, and I likewise took it as somewhat
of a fabricated story, I didn't suppose he had been down to Mexico. I
read "Dear Sirs" there, I read "Dear Lisa." I thought he was writing to
a friend, and Ruth pointed out to me after I had given the letter back
to her, Ruth was somewhat irked that I didn't take more interest in the
thing. I think I might have--no, I don't know as I might have since I
might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway Ruth was irked and didn't
show it to me again and I asked her now what was in that letter that I
didn't see and she didn't tell me.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was all prior to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say to you?
Mr. PAINE. Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently
had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it.
Yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate
such stories here."
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?
Mr. PAINE. No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized
how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that,
and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was
reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not
the latter part about having used another name.
And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he
was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits
which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind. Then later
Ruth asked me what did I think about it----
Mr. LIEBELER. This was before the assassination that she asked you this?
Mr. PAINE. I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it later the same day?
Mr. PAINE. No; I think it probably was another day but I don't
remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?
Mr. PAINE. Well, she was--I think I said, "Let me see that letter
again," and she said, "No; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." So,
heck, if she felt that way, I wasn't going to bother. My first impulse
was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. If she felt that way
I continued to do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who brought the letter up the second time, did Ruth bring
it up?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; Ruth brought it up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any event that caused
her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or
what?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember having slept with her but I have the
impression she brought it up while I was in bed anyway. So it might
have been, just be, I was staying late that night also, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald had given Marina a charm made
out of a Mexican peso at the time that you read this letter?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn about that at any time prior to the
assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note the fact that Oswald had a record of Mexican
music in your home prior to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had given Marina
this charm made from a Mexican peso?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Under what circumstances?
Mr. PAINE. The FBI came out and they were wondering whether Oswald had
used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and
tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading
tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to
have little chips of metal on it and then Ruth remembered that he had
gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin
which Marina put around her neck, and I think she then mentioned it was
a peso. But it hadn't sunk into Ruth with significance of its being a
peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that neither you nor your wife believed that Oswald
had been in Mexico prior to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. You will have to ask Ruth about that. That was my impression
he hadn't been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that
she believed it?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with
Oswald to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union, is that
correct?
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you do that?
Mr. PAINE. That was the day after Stevenson had been stoned.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr. PAINE. That was a Friday I had intended to go, I had also invited
Frank Krystinik for his first visit, I had been telling him about the
ACLU. So I invited Lee to come thinking it might be part--I was not
really talking to him very much, but just being civil but I thought it
might be helpful for him to see something in which I was interested,
that I might find some way that he might find an interest, something
constructive to do.
So, I took him in my car, he and I alone, and on the way, which takes
about 35 minutes, described the ACLU to him, and he didn't know about
it, and described its purpose. Then we went to the meeting which was a
meeting, first we saw a movie called "Suspect," I think it was showing
how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost
after a smear campaign in Washington State, which it had been brought
out that his wife had once been a Communist Party member.
I didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the
discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little
talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this--do
you want to break?
Mr. LIEBELER. Who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and
Mr. Oswald or was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr. PAINE. No; Krystinik came in his own car, so just Lee and myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story.
Mr. PAINE. I thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that
illustrated its own beliefs. One of the things said was that the
Birchers must not be considered anti-Semitic, anti-Semites because they
are also Birchers.
Lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently,
saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the
right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted
this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform
speaking for the Birch Society had said anti-Semitic things and also
anti-Catholic statements or spoke against the Pope or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember. He said something very similar to,
"I disagree with what had just been said," and I do remember that it
contained both some corroboration of his points of view. There had been
some kind of an anti-Semitic statement and criticism of the Pope.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to
make sense?
Mr. PAINE. That was good speaking. It was out of keeping with the mood
of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but I
think it was accepted as--it made sense; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else say anything in response to Oswald's
remarks?
Mr. PAINE. I think not.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened then later on in the meeting?
Mr. PAINE. Later on in the meeting, when the meeting broke up, people
clustered into discussion groups, and Frank, I told Frank, who was a
colleague at work, Frank Krystinik, about Lee and Marina, and so of
course he immediately came to defend free enterprise and what not in
opposition to this fellow I told him about, and I left the discussion
at that point, thinking I knew the kind of discussion it would be.
It was a discussion between three people, a more elderly man whom I
probably thought was a member of the ACLU, and Frank and Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any part of the discussion?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't hear any part of the discussion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss it with either Oswald or
Krystinik?
Mr. PAINE. And in the car going home, Lee asked me if I knew this man
he had been talking to, this older man he had been talking to, and I
think he said that the man seemed to be friendly to Cuba or rather he
said, "Do you think that man is a Communist?" And I said, "No." And
then he said something, "I think he is." Then I asked him why and I
think he said something in regard to Cuba or sympathy with Cuba, and
then I thought to myself, well, that is rather feeble evidence for
proving a Communist.
But he seemed to have the attitude of, felt he wanted to meet that
man again and was pleased he had met him. I thought to myself if that
is the way he has to meet his Communists, he has not yet found the
Communist group in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a Communist group in Dallas, to your knowledge?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of a Communist group in Dallas?
Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I had the impression, this I remember
clearly that he had not found the group with similar feelings to his.
I then asked Frank in regard to, I can't remember when I asked Frank
but I asked Frank about the same conversation and whether he thought
that this third man was a Communist. And he thought no, he thought the
other man was a better--Frank almost got into a fight with Lee, and the
other man was more receptive or didn't argue with him, or drew him out
better, Frank used the word, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Drew Oswald out better?
Mr. PAINE. Drew Oswald out better. But he didn't gather the impression
that he was favoring Castro or Cuba.
Mr. LIEBELER. What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after
the meeting?
Mr. PAINE. So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and
he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it
and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization
like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in
some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about
joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we
say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well
as mine.
He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be
aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone
which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a
person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political
objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it
struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip
service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value.
Mr. DULLES. Did you say anything to him about the activities of the
Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused
of crimes under certain conditions?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all
people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to
be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then--that was a pang
of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he
had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still
didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized--I had
also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been
expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him;
this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been--met some
others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful
people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald impress you that way?
Mr. PAINE. And he did not impress me that way; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or
did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew
what was what about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say
anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss that with Mr. Krystinik?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say?
Mr. PAINE. He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that
he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side,
at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other
people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he
received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them
but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully--and he was ready
to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against
Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur
response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't--Lee
presented his opposing view against it without any issue.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten
into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that?
Mr. PAINE. I think it was Frank who told me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us more about that?
Mr. PAINE. I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just
Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that
expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any
physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how
to control himself.
Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question at this time? Earlier you
talked about your, I think your, first meeting with Oswald and your
conversation with him?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. You said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently
your wife was bothered by his attitude?