Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was said at that time?
Mrs. FORD. At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested
in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them
with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures
of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends
of Marina's friends, girl friends.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that
time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but
they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know
exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they
were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in
Russia and how they came to be married?
Mrs. FORD. It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember
Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and
I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some
place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from
yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia?
Mrs. FORD. Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe
Ted Meller was born in Poland.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that
Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it
appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way.
Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your
conversation?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in
living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it
was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was
comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a
colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know.
He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe
four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other
workers who worked in Minsk?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with
her uncle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying
something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate whether that was about the same that
other people were paid or more?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; about the same as the workers were paid.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is there anything else you can remember about that
luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to
tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on?
Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was
saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a
child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans
she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a
visa, I don't know what else he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was a visa for him to return?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities
took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember
discussing it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward
letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States?
Mrs. FORD. I don't believe anything was said about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else you can remember about that
luncheon now you think we ought to know about?
Mrs. FORD. Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember
anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the
Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been at--in late October or the first
part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a
call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of
she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald,
but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way,
but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on
her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at
the night when attending the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her?
Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on
her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know
who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't
have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby
things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the
time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days.
Mr. LIEBELER. Stayed with Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. FORD. With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week,
and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't
remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin
and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her
in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna
Meller?
Mrs. FORD. Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a
bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and
her children.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he
tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is
not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her,
if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he
will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such
as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough
English to start going on her own whatever she could do.
And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that
is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find
a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then
another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina
could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long
as Marina wished to stay.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe
bring her to your place?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller
before she came to your place?
Mrs. FORD. It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it
is longer than a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at
your house?
Mrs. FORD. No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I
think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called
her up every night, I think he did call, every evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina talk to him on the telephone?
Mrs. FORD. She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the
telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I
didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on
her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you what the conversations were about?
Mrs. FORD. No. She did not say anything.
Representative FORD. When was this period that she stayed with you,
October and November of 1963?
Mrs. FORD. I believe it must have been the first part of November.
Representative FORD. Of 1963?
Mrs. FORD. 1962.
Representative FORD. 1962.
Mrs. FORD. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege
of staying at your home at that time?
Mrs. FORD. No; I did not expect it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any arrangement she would work in the house?
Mrs. FORD. No; there was no arrangement; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there
about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she
separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage?
Mrs. FORD. I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she
couldn't stand any longer, she was saying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mistreatment by him?
Mrs. FORD. Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the
problem was?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go
into explanations of their living together.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the
Russian friends that Marina had?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they argue about that?
Mrs. FORD. Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know
she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous
for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any
of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes,
and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said
he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he
was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not
to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose
they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived
with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might
be?
Mrs. FORD. She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her
he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the
difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not
explain and didn't go into explanations of this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this
separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the
result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been
partially responsible for it, what did you think?
Mrs. FORD. My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I
think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl.
The CHAIRMAN. She is what?
Mrs. FORD. I think she is rather immature in thinking.
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.
Mrs. FORD. And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in
a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about arguments concerning his
mother?
Mrs. FORD. Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he
was badly brought up or something like that.
Representative FORD. He was what?
Mrs. FORD. Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad
and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to
let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her
in and then they would argue over that.
Representative FORD. He would tell her not to let the mother in?
Mrs. FORD. That is right, and she would because she said she just
couldn't do that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward
Lee's mother were?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if
she liked her or didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that
Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina
was from Czechoslovakia?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know of anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want
people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention
that?
Mrs. FORD. Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina didn't mention anything like that to you?
Mrs. FORD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell
you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her
birthplace and youth in Russia?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me
more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was
talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to
school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about
her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's
see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would
that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's
see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't
know where they were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for
a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and
they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed
up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the
children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I
believe.